Is there consciousness in Nirodha Samāpatti?

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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rhinoceroshorn
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Re: Is there consciousness in Nirodha Samāpatti?

Post by rhinoceroshorn »

"we would remember having been fully conscious, but not conscious of anything."
It seems in an aware version the attention wave still ceases, but I find this can sometimes be gradual. There is is still the cessation of the karmic process along with attention to any object, but one can remain there without loosing consiousness. In my experience, for far longer.
Nirodha samapatti is different as there is still an element of "knowing" that is present, as well as other subtle sensations depending on how deeply one is into the state.
In my experience cessation/fruition is caused in part, if not entirely, by a deeply felt recognition that no object is continuous - they're all impermanent. We slowly gain this recognition - and this likely to be why equanimity preceeds cessation - we're starting to see the process of mind in real time. Once we see and feel it deeply and completely enough (not just intellectualy)... bam! Cessation.
Yes, that's probably why it's called "cessation." If we could just eliminate the experience of objects we'd be free of all suffering. Unfortunately, cessation also frees us from consciousness.
I can't tell anything about the cessation at all. I simply have no memory of it. All I can remember is afterwards that something has gone missing, utterly and there was a surprised and genuine "what was that????".
There was left only consciousness aware of itself. (If I was to ascribe a tone to the experience it would be one of curiosity and anticipation, of what ‘I’ had no idea as there was a complete absence of any conceptual thought)…
I seem to get cessations on a spectrum. Most are extremely tiny, immediate, a snap, like cut frames from a movie, and they feel relieving. On the other end, I've had a few that were more dramatic, more prolonged, like sensations being slowly faded out like a mist, and whooshing back in.
Yes. I suspect there are many states surrounding true cessation (of the no consciousness kind). Going in, coming out.... nirodha samapatti, and so on.
No sounds, no visuals, no feelings, no thoughts, no emotions, no memories, no concept of self whatsoever. There was left only consciousness aware of itself.
Who is right, who is wrong? Who can prove something? not even Ven. Śāriputta made it clear. Is there consciousness? Idk :hello:
There seems to be some graduality???
Eyes downcast, not footloose,
senses guarded, with protected mind,
not oozing — not burning — with lust,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
Image
See, Ānanda! All those conditioned phenomena have passed, ceased, and perished. So impermanent are conditions, so unstable are conditions, so unreliable are conditions. This is quite enough for you to become disillusioned, dispassionate, and freed regarding all conditions.
Dīgha Nikāya 17
User1249x
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Re: Is there consciousness in Nirodha Samāpatti?

Post by User1249x »

One just can't categorically answer whether a person is conscious or unconscious when absorbed based on nibbana principle in sannavedananirodha or having attained parinibbana.

If you say he is conscious then people will misunderstand it as if there is the arising, persisting and cessation of consciousness due to contact of which feeling & perception are born.

If you say he is uncounscious people will misunderstand it as if one is then like a plant or in a coma.

People and those learning the Dhamma in particular understand the word consciousness in mundane sense to be synonymous with intellect & mind, conjoined with 3 other aggregates and in particular referring to 6 kinds of sense-consciousness-elements that arise as one thing and cease as another.

The question is therefore never answered categorically.

Sutta method has these expressions;
...he said to Ven. Sariputta, "With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media [vision, hearing, smell, taste, touch, & intellection] is it the case that there is anything else?"

[Sariputta:] "Don't say that, my friend."

[Maha Kotthita:] "With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media, is it the case that there is not anything else?"

[Sariputta:] "Don't say that, my friend."

[Maha Kotthita:] "...is it the case that there both is & is not anything else?"

[Sariputta:] "Don't say that, my friend."

[Maha Kotthita:] "...is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?"

[Sariputta:] "Don't say that, my friend."

[Maha Kotthita:] "Being asked if, with the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media, there is anything else, you say, 'Don't say that, my friend.' Being asked if ... there is not anything else ... there both is & is not anything else ... there neither is nor is not anything else, you say, 'Don't say that, my friend.' Now, how is the meaning of your words to be understood?"

[Sariputta:] "The statement, 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media [vision, hearing, smell, taste, touch, & intellection] is it the case that there is anything else?' objectifies non-objectification.[1] The statement, '... is it the case that there is not anything else ... is it the case that there both is & is not anything else ... is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectifies non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes. However far objectification goes, that is how far the six contact media go. With the remainderless fading & stopping of the six contact-media, there comes to be the stopping, the allaying of objectification. https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"There is the case, Ananda, where the monk would be percipient in this way: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
“One perception arose and another perception ceased in me: ‘The cessation of existence is nibbāna; the cessation of existence is nibbāna.’ Just as, when a fire of twigs is burning, one flame arises and another flame ceases, so one perception arose and another perception ceased in me: ‘The cessation of existence is nibbāna; the cessation of existence is nibbāna.’ On that occasion, friend, I was percipient: ‘The cessation of existence is nibbāna.’”

Aṅguttara Nikāya 10.7
Sāriputta Sutta
"Just as if there were a roofed house or a roofed hall having windows on the north, the south, or the east. When the sun rises, and a ray has entered by way of the window, where does it land?"

"On the western wall, lord."
"And if there is no western wall, where does it land?"
"On the ground, lord."
"And if there is no ground, where does it land?"
"On the water, lord."
"And if there is no water, where does it land?"
"It does not land, lord."

"In the same way, where there is no passion for the nutriment of physical food... contact... intellectual intention... consciousness, where there is no delight, no craving, then consciousness does not land there or increase. Where consciousness does not land or increase, there is no alighting of name-&-form. Where there is no alighting of name-&-form, there is no growth of fabrications. Where there is no growth of fabrications, there is no production of renewed becoming in the future. Where there is no production of renewed becoming in the future, there is no future birth, aging, & death. That, I tell you, has no sorrow, affliction, or despair." https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"When delight and existence are utterly exhausted,
when perception & consciousness are both destroyed,
when feelings cease and are appeased - thus, O friend,
do I know, for them that live
deliverance, freedom, detachment."

Saṃyutta Nikāya 1.2
Nimokkha Sutta
When people are perplexed about it one ought not to simplify it into a categorical answer but instead one ought to answer analogically to this;
Now it's possible, Ananda, that some wanderers of other persuasions might say, 'Gotama the contemplative speaks of the cessation of perception & feeling and yet describes it as pleasure. What is this? How can this be?' When they say that, they are to be told, 'It's not the case, friends, that the Blessed One describes only pleasant feeling as included under pleasure. Wherever pleasure is found, in whatever terms, the Blessed One describes it as pleasure.'" https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
There are other similar passages but this is the gist of sutta expression.

Abhidhamma method for expressing this is more concise;
Therein what is ideational sense-base? The aggregate of feeling, aggregate of perception, aggregate of volitional activities [genesis; sankhara] and that invisible non-impingent form included in the ideational sense-base; the unconditioned element.
https://suttacentral.net/vb2/en/thittila
Three aggregates are conjoined with consciousness. The aggregate of form is not conjoined with consciousness. The aggregate of consciousness should not be said to be, conjoined with consciousness or not conjoined with consciousness.
...
The aggregate of consciousness by way of singlefold division: Is associated with contact.

The aggregate of consciousness by way of twofold division: Is mundane; is supramundane. https://suttacentral.net/vb1/en/thittila
I personally like the Nagasena's answers to king Milinda;
Description of Nibbàna
“Is it possible, Nàgasena, to point out the size, shape or
duration of nibbàna by a simile?”
“No it is not possible; there is no other thing like it.”
“Is there then any attribute of nibbàna found in other
things that can be demonstrated by a simile?”
“Yes that can be done.
“As a lotus is unwetted by water, nibbàna is unsullied
by the defilements.
“Like water, it cools the fever of defilements and
quenches the thirst of craving.
“Like medicine, it protects beings who are poisoned
by the defilements, cures the disease of suffering, and nourishes like nectar.
“As the ocean is empty of corpses, nibbàna is empty of
all defilements; as the ocean is not increased by all the
rivers that flow into it, so nibbàna is not increased by all the beings who attain it; it is the abode of great beings [the arahants], and it is decorated with the waves of knowledge and freedom.
“Like food, which sustains life, nibbàna drives away
old age and death; it increases the spiritual strength of
beings; it gives the beauty of virtue, it removes the distress of the defilements, it relieves the exhaustion of all suffering.
“Like space, it is not born, does not decay or perish, it
does not pass away here and arise elsewhere, it is invin-
cible, thieves cannot steal it, it is not attached to anything, it is the sphere of ariyans who are like birds in space, it is unobstructed and it is infinite.
“Like a wish-fulfilling gem, it fulfils all desires, causes
delight and is lustrous.
“Like red sandalwood, it is hard to get, its fragrance
is incomparable and it is praised by good men.
“As ghee is recognisable by its special attributes, so
nibbàna has special attributes; as ghee has a sweet fragrance, nibbàna has the sweet fragrance of virtue; as ghee has a delicious taste, nibbàna has the delicious taste of freedom.
“Like a mountain peak, it is very high, immovable, in-
accessible to the defilements, it has no place where defilements can grow, and it is without favouritism or prejudice.”

The Realisation of Nibbàna
“You say, Nàgasena, that nibbàna is neither past, nor
present nor future, neither arisen, nor not arisen, nor pro-
ducible.219 In that case does the man who realises nibbàna realise something already produced, or does he himself produce it first and then realise it?”
“Neither of these, O king, yet nibbàna does exist.”
“Do not, Nàgasena, answer this question by making it
obscure! Make it clear and elucidate it. It is a point on which people are bewildered and lost in doubt. Break this dart of uncertainty.”
“The element of nibbàna does exist, O king, and he
who practises rightly and who rightly comprehends the
formations according to the teachings of the Conqueror, he, by his wisdom, realises nibbàna.

“How is nibbàna to be shown? By freedom from dis-
tress and danger, by purity and by coolness. As a man,
afraid and terrified at having fallen among enemies, would be relieved and blissful when he had escaped to a safe place; or as one fallen into a pit of filth would be at ease and glad when he had got out of the pit and cleaned up; or as one trapped in a forest fire would be calm and cool when he had reached a safe spot. As fearful and terrifying should you regard the anxiety that arises again and again on account of birth, old age, disease and death; as filth should you regard gain, honours and fame; as hot and searing should you regard the three-fold fire of desire, hatred and delusion.

“How does he who is practising rightly realise
nibbàna? He rightly grasps the cyclic nature of formations and therein he sees only birth, old age, disease and death; he sees nothing pleasant or agreeable in any part of it.

Seeing nothing there to be taken hold of, as on a red-hot
iron ball, his mind overflows with discontent and a fever
takes hold of his body; hopeless and without a refuge he
becomes disgusted with repeated lives. To him who sees
the terror of the treadmill of life the thought arises, ‘On fire and blazing is this wheel of life, full of suffering and
despair. If only there could be an end to it, that would be
peaceful, that would be excellent; the cessation of all mental formations,’ the renunciation of grasping, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, nibbàna!’
“Therewith his mind leaps forward into the state
where there is no becoming. Then has he found peace, then does he exult and rejoice at the thought, ‘A refuge has been found at last!’ He strives along the path for the cessation of formations, searches it out, develops it, and makes much of it. To that end he stirs up his mindfulness, energy and joy; and from attending again and again to that thought [of disgust with mental formations], having transcended the treadmill of life, he brings the cycle to a halt. One who stops the treadmill is said to have realised nibbàna.”

Where is Nibbàna?
“Is there a place, Nàgasena, where nibbàna is stored up?”
“No there is not, yet it does exist. As there is no place
where fire is stored up yet it may be produced by rubbing
two dry sticks together.’
“But is there any place on which a man might stand
and realise nibbàna?”
“Yes there is; virtue is the place; standing on that,
and with reasoning, wherever he might be, whether in the
land of the Scythians or the Bactrians, whether in China or Tibet, in Kashmir or Gandhàra, on a mountain top or in
the highest heavens; the one who practises rightly realises nibbàna. “

“Very good, Nàgasena, you have taught about nibbàna,
you have explained about the realisation of nibbàna, you
have praised the qualities of virtue, shown the right way of practice, raised aloft the banner of the Dhamma, established the Dhamma as a leading principle; not barren nor without fruit are the efforts of those with right aims!” https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://human.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Religious_Studies/Book%253A_Six_Ways_of_Being_Religious_(Cannon)/10%253A_The_Way_of_Reasoned_Inquiry/10.01%253A_Nagasena_Replies_to_the_Questions_of_King_Milinda&ved=2ahUKEwjX66Ket7nqAhWMepoKHV2PAvgQFjAMegQIBhAB&usg=AOvVaw0DF4h9YprsquFwzhoGPmlz
One just can't describe or explain it in terms pertaining to the world, sense faculties and existence as we know it or as we imagine non-existence, ut's nothing like that. That would be akin to trying to describe space in terms of sound.

As a side note, i apologize to Zom if i misrepresented him earlier, i shouldn't have done that and it was rude.
Zom wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 1:37 pm
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Pondera
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Re: Is there consciousness in Nirodha Samāpatti?

Post by Pondera »

pegembara wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 4:40 pm
Pondera wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 7:03 am 1. “Seeing with discernment, his fermentations were totally ended”

How does one “see with discernment” if one has been hit in the head with a brick unconscious.

2. “He emerged mindfully”

When does he become “mindful”? Is it the exact moment after the experience? Or is it the more obvious interpretation that he was mindful the whole time?

Keep in “mind” that “awareness release” is the goal of the path. One cannot release their awareness if they’ve been hit over the head with a brick unconscious.

Would you equate Nirodha Samapatti with being under anaesthetic?

How incredibly odd ...

🤔-a
One who is enjoying a cessation experience in this very life is not unconscious like someone who is in a coma or dead. They are fully conscious of the object of nibbāna.
Cessation of what? Sights, sounds, smells, taste, touch, mental objects ie. sankharas/conditioned. You mean dead to sensory experiences.
So instead of dependent origination, you have dependent cessation? Ending of the "world" as it were. Everything is going, going, gone but awareness remains.
What is left? Nibbana/unconditioned.....?Citta/released awareness :shock:
But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one.

"'Everything exists': That is one extreme. 'Everything doesn't exist': That is a second extreme. Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma via the middle: From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrication...

"Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness...

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
So this cessation of "consciousness" is not what most people would consider as being unconscious but can still mean being dead to the world.


Likewise in Anattalakkhana Sutta the cessation of consciousnesses(eye, ear, nose ,tongue, tactile and mind) does not mean being unconscious:
"Bhikkhus, how do you conceive it: is form permanent or impermanent?" — "Impermanent, venerable Sir." — "Now is what is impermanent painful or pleasant?" — "Painful, venerable Sir." — "Now is what is impermanent, what is painful since subject to change, fit to be regarded thus: 'This is mine, this is I, this is my self'"? — "No, venerable sir."

"Is feeling permanent or impermanent?...

"Is perception permanent or impermanent?...

"Are determinations permanent or impermanent?...

"Is consciousness[ess] permanent or impermanent?"

What is your opinion?
I believe we should adopt the middle way and avoid the extreme of “existence” and “non-existence”. And the same for “conscious” and “unconscious”.

These terms don’t describe Nirodha Samapatti or Nibbana. The Buddha wanted us to steer clear of projecting “interpretations” onto these things.

They are “ineffable”.

🤔
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
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Re: Is there consciousness in Nirodha Samāpatti?

Post by atipattoh »

Pondera wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 7:03 am ...
2. “He emerged mindfully”

When does he become “mindful”? Is it the exact moment after the experience? Or is it the more obvious interpretation that he was mindful the whole time?
Typical limitation of translation for sati with mindful.

With sankhara as condition, consciousness come to be.

Instead of reading it as "He emerged mindfully"; an alternative translation is "Reflexively, he emerges...", gives a very different perspective.
There is no being, performing any mindful action of emerges, however, the cycles of coming into consciousness, being aware, that give a notion of mindfully emerges from that attainment.
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Re: Is there consciousness in Nirodha Samāpatti?

Post by Pondera »

atipattoh wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 5:25 am
Pondera wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 7:03 am ...
2. “He emerged mindfully”

When does he become “mindful”? Is it the exact moment after the experience? Or is it the more obvious interpretation that he was mindful the whole time?
Typical limitation of translation for sati with mindful.

With sankhara as condition, consciousness come to be.

Instead of reading it as "He emerged mindfully"; an alternative translation is "Reflexively, he emerges...", gives a very different perspective.
There is no being, performing any mindful action of emerges, however, the cycles of coming into consciousness, being aware, that give a notion of mindfully emerges from that attainment.
Annihilationism
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
atipattoh
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Re: Is there consciousness in Nirodha Samāpatti?

Post by atipattoh »

Pondera wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 5:27 am
atipattoh wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 5:25 am
Pondera wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 7:03 am ...
2. “He emerged mindfully”

When does he become “mindful”? Is it the exact moment after the experience? Or is it the more obvious interpretation that he was mindful the whole time?
Typical limitation of translation for sati with mindful.

With sankhara as condition, consciousness come to be.

Instead of reading it as "He emerged mindfully"; an alternative translation is "Reflexively, he emerges...", gives a very different perspective.
There is no being, performing any mindful action of emerges, however, the cycles of coming into consciousness, being aware, that give a notion of mindfully emerges from that attainment.
Annihilationism
😈
Good luck!
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Re: Is there consciousness in Nirodha Samāpatti?

Post by Pondera »

atipattoh wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 5:30 am
Pondera wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 5:27 am
atipattoh wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 5:25 am
Typical limitation of translation for sati with mindful.

With sankhara as condition, consciousness come to be.

Instead of reading it as "He emerged mindfully"; an alternative translation is "Reflexively, he emerges...", gives a very different perspective.
There is no being, performing any mindful action of emerges, however, the cycles of coming into consciousness, being aware, that give a notion of mindfully emerges from that attainment.
Annihilationism
😈
Good luck!
All ready been there. And I emerged mindfully. I have no confusion about the use of the term.
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
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Re: Is there consciousness in Nirodha Samāpatti?

Post by DooDoot »

User1249x wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 4:21 pm When you wake up from a dream you are no longer percepient of the dream-world-existence, you are percepient of the worldly existence. One perception arises as another perception ceases.

When entering cessation, you are no longer percepient of worldly existence, you are percepient of it's cessation.
When "the world" ceases, sense experience remains. Refer to SN 12.44.
User1249x wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 4:21 pm
“One perception arose and another perception ceased in me: ‘The cessation of existence is nibbāna; the cessation of existence is nibbāna.’ Just as, when a fire of twigs is burning, one flame arises and another flame ceases, so one perception arose and another perception ceased in me: ‘The cessation of existence is nibbāna; the cessation of existence is nibbāna.’ On that occasion, friend, I was percipient: ‘The cessation of existence is nibbāna.’”

Aṅguttara Nikāya 10.7
Sāriputta Sutta
"Existence" above is "bhava". "Bhava" is a mental defilement with self-view, where the mind is "established" in an object. Refer to AN 3.76, which defines "bhava".
User1249x wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 4:21 pmCessation of existence is Nibbana, the arahants with the breakup of the body abandon all being, there is then no fuel for a future, cessation of existence is extinguishment.
Cessation of "bhava" is the ending of self-view.
User1249x wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 4:21 pmThe thought does not occur 'i am about to enter into' or 'i am about to emerge from' the cessation of perception & feeling, thoughts occur in the context of existence not outside.
Yes, because there is no self-view.
User1249x wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 4:21 pmThe Buddha says;
"What do you think, Anuradha: Do you regard form as the Tathagata?"

"No, lord."

"Do you regard feeling as the Tathagata?"

"No, lord."

"Do you regard perception as the Tathagata?"

"No, lord."

"Do you regard fabrications as the Tathagata?"

"No, lord."

"Do you regard consciousness as the Tathagata?"

"No, lord."

"What do you think, Anuradha: Do you regard the Tathagata as being in form?... Elsewhere than form?... In feeling?... Elsewhere than feeling?... In perception?... Elsewhere than perception?... In fabrications?... Elsewhere than fabrications?... In consciousness?... Elsewhere than consciousness?"

"No, lord."

"What do you think: Do you regard the Tathagata as form-feeling-perception-fabrications-consciousness?"

"No, lord."

"Do you regard the Tathagata as that which is without form, without feeling, without perception, without fabrications, without consciousness?"

"No, lord."

"And so, Anuradha — when you can't pin down the Tathagata as a truth or reality even in the present life — is it proper for you to declare, 'Friends, the Tathagata — the supreme man, the superlative man, attainer of the superlative attainment — being described, is described otherwise than with these four positions: The Tathagata exists after death, does not exist after death, both does & does not exist after death, neither exists nor does not exist after death'?"

"No, lord."

"Very good, Anuradha. Very good. Both formerly & now, it is only stress that I describe, and the cessation of stress."

"'Having directly known the all as the all, and having directly known the extent of what has not been experienced through the allness of the all, I wasn't the all, I wasn't in the all, I wasn't coming forth from the all, I wasn't "The all is mine." I didn't affirm the all."
Yes, because there is no self-view that Tathagata is a self.
User1249x wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 4:21 pmWhat this means is that he was percepient of the cessation of the existence altogether and nothing came out of it.
No. What it means is there was no view of "he" or "self".
User1249x wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 4:21 pmNothing of this world goes on to perceive the Unmade
The "Unmade" is experienced by consciousness. The Dhammapada 383 says: "O holy man, the knower of the Uncreate".
User1249x wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 4:21 pmIf 5 people enter nirodha samapatti at the same time, then the unmade element is not perceived by 5 entities, nor are there 5 unmades; nor are the 5 people one and the same.
Nirodha Samapatti is not the Unmade; it is not Nibbana.
User1249x wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 4:21 pm
There is, monks, an unborn[1] — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated. If there were not that unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, there would not be the case that escape from the born — become — made — fabricated would be discerned. But precisely because there is an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, escape from the born — become — made — fabricated is discerned.[2]
The above is not Nirodha Samapatti.
User1249x wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 4:21 pmWith the breakup of the body and without residue fuel for a future the Arahants abandon all being, cessation of existence is it's extinguishment and just this is the end of suffering.
It appears the stock phrase in the suttas "with the break up of the body" never occurs in relation to Nibbana (except in some versions of MN 140).
rhinoceroshorn wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 4:45 pm This was the best explanation I read. Thank you :hug:
It's a great loss for the community not to have you here anymore actively.
Some minds have intolerant temper tantrums when others disagree with them because the Dhamma is a Snake for them. :smile:
rhinoceroshorn wrote: Sat Jul 04, 2020 7:02 pm Hello my friends. Help me understand this part of MN43:

What does it mean in practical terms? One in Nirodha Samapatti ceased feelings and perceptions, but is also conscious of this state, since the 5 senses are "clear"?
MN 43 clearly says consciousness, feeling & perception are co-joined. Therefore when feeling & perception cease, it logically seems consciousness must also cease.

As for the phrase above, it refers to the five physical sense organs and appears to say they are "clear" or "clean" or "pure". It does not say they are active with consciousness.

:alien:
Last edited by DooDoot on Fri Aug 07, 2020 12:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Is there consciousness in Nirodha Samāpatti?

Post by confusedlayman »

No
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Re: Is there consciousness in Nirodha Samāpatti?

Post by DooDoot »

confusedlayman wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 11:57 amNo
Yes. When a mind is dirty with defilement, the physical sense organs also become literally dirty. When perception & feeling cease, all defilement in the citta (mind-heart) must cease because perception & feeling is the citta-sankharo (mind conditioner; condition for defilement; MN 44).

MN 43 literally says it is the five physical sense organs that become "clean" in Nirodha Samāpatti. MN 43 does not refer to the 6th mind sense organ in Nirodha Samāpatti.

Below is ordinary eyes vs defiled eyes. Naturally, in samadhi, eyes become more & more purified or cleansed. The photos below can teach us much more about reality & Dhamma than Narijuana.
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There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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confusedlayman
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Re: Is there consciousness in Nirodha Samāpatti?

Post by confusedlayman »

DooDoot wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 11:16 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 11:57 amNo
Yes. When a mind is dirty with defilement, the physical sense organs also become literally dirty. When perception & feeling cease, all defilement in the citta (mind-heart) must cease because perception & feeling is the citta-sankharo (mind conditioner; condition for defilement; MN 44).

MN 43 literally says it is the five physical sense organs that become "clean" in Nirodha Samāpatti. MN 43 does not refer to the 6th mind sense organ in Nirodha Samāpatti.

Below is ordinary eyes vs defiled eyes. Naturally, in samadhi, eyes become more & more purified or cleansed. The photos below can teach us much more about reality & Dhamma than Narijuana.
this photo doesnt teach anything... maybe u can explain...
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Re: Is there consciousness in Nirodha Samāpatti?

Post by DooDoot »

confusedlayman wrote: Sat Aug 08, 2020 7:19 am this photo doesnt teach anything... maybe u can explain...
this photo doesnt teach the unteachable anything. buddha said not all beings can understand dhamma :P
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
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BlackMagic
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Re: Is there consciousness in Nirodha Samāpatti?

Post by BlackMagic »

Best thought of as the bardo of becoming as beings arise and pass come and go; and yet there is no longer any becoming as "thus gone". Suchness is best seen as the state of other beings coming and going clinging to perception and apperception and a host of other dualities... just like in meditation when one widens the gap in the perception of all pervasive space one should als widen Nirodha.

The first experience one has of it; it is best to go within three days to a temple or shrine... any more than three days your subtle and gross body will separate and cease to be in union or yab/yum.

Then one will become like a preta hopping skipping and jumping form begging someone to make you manifold etc. it's a trap and well really no different than samsara in the spiritual sense. This is where the bhavacakra is typically applied and yet they are unaware that kalichakra will destroy all they've built as there is no way any house builder can exist again...

Well, that's speaking of experience... my advice is do not look at the bhavacakra from left hand first go the other way; Gotoma spoke of this several times in sutta as reversing the wheel. Carkavartins or wheel turners are seen as a blessing whether they know what they are doing or not, typically once every hundred years someone is expected to raise through the ranks of some family and turn the wheel... Gotama referred to the bhavacakra as the wheel of law.

I personally don't like the bhavacakra as it is just a teaching tool... using it for anything else? Yama style... not good. As that's exactly what a house builder does with one... I don't chase the house builders around as said kali will simply destroy it like a house of cards, and if not I just sit until the whole thing falls apart... in not self, impermanence and well make someone or anyone else your subject and that's exactly give rise to suffering.

Don't accept slaves when offered; No. even if they want to serve you... No.

Purgatory is the other equivalent until those beings wake up and see they are not even helping themselves no matter how many of them agree that it is a right, just, or proper thing to be doing... so it is mara after mara building army after army only to have a hunter come along a skewer themselves having gotten caught in five ways.

Oh be sure to renounce any bodhisattva "vows" yes some beings do include reading them the same as taking them... best not argue over it. Language some see english when spoken in pictures instead of hearing words, so it paints a picture in their mind of what you are saying. I am sure you've heard taken literal and figurative... correct? Well, that is what is being spoken of. In english language those letters are not pictures, in other languages it's like looking at a cartoon for lack of a better word as there typically aren't words; just "seeing" whatever that just seeing paints as real or pictographs to an individual I can't say... seeing is not required either; as sound does the same thing like fish detectors... typing or tapping.

There are many times I listen to music and sigh; that only if they could get their mind or thought out of the way of the music so the instrument can simply speak for itself what it wants to say and the player simply be the empty channel for it... kind of like a mediumship but that sort of thing takes place already... awareness of it however I don't know.

Duality to some I am sure that do not have a verbal dialog in their head would say when does one mental imagery end and the other begin? That is when the concept of "unconscious" or "unconsciousness" arises which is NOT Nirodha Sammapati.
What has happened; Is that which has yet to come. What will be ...Already is.
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Re: Is there consciousness in Nirodha Samāpatti?

Post by confusedlayman »

consciousness is transcended at 6th jhana... in noriodha u are not concious of anything so no concniousness
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Assaji
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Re: Is there consciousness in Nirodha Samāpatti?

Post by Assaji »

Hello Rhinoceroshorn,
rhinoceroshorn wrote: Sat Jul 04, 2020 7:02 pm What does it mean in practical terms? One in Nirodha Samapatti ceased feelings and perceptions, but is also conscious of this state, since the 5 senses are "clear"?
Probably the best description is given in the Vimuttimagga:

https://archive.org/details/ArahantUpat ... 5/mode/2up
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