Is there consciousness in Nirodha Samāpatti?

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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confusedlayman
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Re: Is there consciousness in Nirodha Samāpatti?

Post by confusedlayman »

rhinoceroshorn wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 5:39 pm
SteRo wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 5:37 pm
rhinoceroshorn wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 4:45 pm
This was the best explanation I read.
how can you be sure that an explanation of what you don´t know can be "best"? it can be utterly inappropriate and just cause a liking because it satisfies your pre-conditioned intellect.
Because I have access to Nirodha.
nirodha is pari nibbana exp

there is no exp ...

if it didnt agree, then u dont have access to nirodha
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Re: Is there consciousness in Nirodha Samāpatti?

Post by Pondera »

SteRo wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 10:23 am
rhinoceroshorn wrote: Sat Jul 04, 2020 7:02 pm Hello my friends. Help me understand this part of MN43:
"When someone dies, their physical, verbal, and mental processes have ceased and stilled; their vitality is spent; their warmth is dissipated; and their faculties have disintegrated. When a mendicant has attained the cessation of perception and feeling, their physical, verbal, and mental processes have ceased and stilled. But their vitality is not spent; their warmth is not dissipated; and their faculties are very clear. That’s the difference between someone who has passed away and a mendicant who has attained the cessation of perception and feeling.”
https://suttacentral.net/mn43/en/sujato

What does it mean in practical terms? One in Nirodha Samapatti ceased feelings and perceptions, but is also conscious of this state, since the 5 senses are "clear"?
There is the misuderstanding that "faculties are very clear" means "being conscious of" but it does not mean that. On the other hand, how to not imply "passed out" without implying "being conscious of"? It seems that "faculties are very clear" is an appropriate expression.
Pondera wrote: Sat Jul 04, 2020 11:43 pm Nirodha Samapatti is the cessation of perception and feeling. Not the cessation of experience.
That´s a problematic statement since experience depends on conceit ´I am´and ignorance.
There is no conceit or concept of I am in Nirodha Samapatti.

It is a statement of conceit to assert that all experience must entail conceit
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Re: Is there consciousness in Nirodha Samāpatti?

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rhinoceroshorn wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 3:35 pm
Pondera wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 3:21 am.

There are too many examples to list of Arahants entering Nirodha Samapatti and “investigating” that attainment through wisdom.
Hello Pondera.
Could you please post some of them?
Here’s one:
"Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, he enters & remains in the cessation of perception & feeling. And as he sees with discernment, the mental fermentations go to their total end. He remains touching with his body in whatever way there is an opening there, and he knows it through discernment. It is to this extent that one is described by the Blessed One as released both ways without a sequel.” https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
First, his fermentations go to their total end. Second, he remains touching with his body in whatever way there is an opening there ... etcetera.

“Awareness release” is the goal. Nirodha Samapatti is the way to get there. And it is not unconscious. If it were, the Buddha would have not called it “Awareness release”. He would have called it “Non-Awareness release”. Or something to that effect.

It is also “without a sequel”. It is the penultimate accomplishment. The “heartwood” of the Buddha’s teachings.
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Re: Is there consciousness in Nirodha Samāpatti?

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I had quoted suttas, but they are not so explicit.
Instead, I'm going to quote Ven. Pesala.
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote: Fri Aug 30, 2019 5:36 am
alfa wrote: Fri Aug 30, 2019 3:52 amSo nirvana = cessation of consciousness. :anjali:
I don't think so. What I understood is that it is the cessation of feeling and perception. One who is enjoying a cessation experience in this very life is not unconscious like someone who is in a coma or dead. They are fully conscious of the object of nibbāna.
Eyes downcast, not footloose,
senses guarded, with protected mind,
not oozing — not burning — with lust,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
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See, Ānanda! All those conditioned phenomena have passed, ceased, and perished. So impermanent are conditions, so unstable are conditions, so unreliable are conditions. This is quite enough for you to become disillusioned, dispassionate, and freed regarding all conditions.
Dīgha Nikāya 17
SteRo
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Re: Is there consciousness in Nirodha Samāpatti?

Post by SteRo »

Pondera wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 10:11 pm
There is no conceit or concept of I am in Nirodha Samapatti.

It is a statement of conceit to assert that all experience must entail conceit
the conceit ´I am´is the prerequisite for reading and posting in this forum, so we don´t have to argue about conceit being present or not when writing anything here. the point however was that "your" Nirodha Samapatti is based on conceit ´I am´ too, if there is experience. so it seems what you experienced was not Nirodha Samapatti.
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Re: Is there consciousness in Nirodha Samāpatti?

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From the Abhidhammattha-saṅgaha (Comprehensive Manual of Abdhidhamma): https://www.saraniya.com/books/meditati ... dhamma.pdf
Attachments
COMP ABHI.jpg
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Is there consciousness in Nirodha Samāpatti?

Post by Pondera »

SteRo wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 3:50 am
Pondera wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 10:11 pm
There is no conceit or concept of I am in Nirodha Samapatti.

It is a statement of conceit to assert that all experience must entail conceit
the conceit ´I am´is the prerequisite for reading and posting in this forum, so we don´t have to argue about conceit being present or not when writing anything here. the point however was that "your" Nirodha Samapatti is based on conceit ´I am´ too, if there is experience. so it seems what you experienced was not Nirodha Samapatti.
In your conceited fashion, you deem all possible experience as a fabrication of the conceit “I am”. Giving your conceited opinion does not necessarily make whatever you say true.

Provide me with a sutta example where your personal opinions about conceit and experience are expressed and I will give you the benefit of the doubt.

Here nor there. Dhamma practitioners who reach Nirodha Samapatti are expressed as having direct knowledge of said state; they investigate every aspect of it.

Your opinion that conceit follows any and all types of experience is in contradiction with sutta expressions about practitioners who reach Nirodha Samapatti.

In addition, you have no idea WHAT I experienced - or how I experienced it - making your observations on it very shallow and superficial.
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Re: Is there consciousness in Nirodha Samāpatti?

Post by SteRo »

Pondera wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 4:31 am
SteRo wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 3:50 am
Pondera wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 10:11 pm
There is no conceit or concept of I am in Nirodha Samapatti.

It is a statement of conceit to assert that all experience must entail conceit
the conceit ´I am´is the prerequisite for reading and posting in this forum, so we don´t have to argue about conceit being present or not when writing anything here. the point however was that "your" Nirodha Samapatti is based on conceit ´I am´ too, if there is experience. so it seems what you experienced was not Nirodha Samapatti.
In your conceited fashion, you deem all possible experience as a fabrication of the conceit “I am”. Giving your conceited opinion does not necessarily make whatever you say true.

Provide me with a sutta example where your personal opinions about conceit and experience are expressed and I will give you the benefit of the doubt.

Here nor there. Dhamma practitioners who reach Nirodha Samapatti are expressed as having direct knowledge of said state; they investigate every aspect of it.

Your opinion that conceit follows any and all types of experience is in contradiction with sutta expressions about practitioners who reach Nirodha Samapatti.

In addition, you have no idea WHAT I experienced - or how I experienced it - making your observations on it very shallow and superficial.
Don´t cling to experience!
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Re: Is there consciousness in Nirodha Samāpatti?

Post by Pondera »

SteRo wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 4:41 am
Pondera wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 4:31 am
SteRo wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 3:50 am

the conceit ´I am´is the prerequisite for reading and posting in this forum, so we don´t have to argue about conceit being present or not when writing anything here. the point however was that "your" Nirodha Samapatti is based on conceit ´I am´ too, if there is experience. so it seems what you experienced was not Nirodha Samapatti.
In your conceited fashion, you deem all possible experience as a fabrication of the conceit “I am”. Giving your conceited opinion does not necessarily make whatever you say true.

Provide me with a sutta example where your personal opinions about conceit and experience are expressed and I will give you the benefit of the doubt.

Here nor there. Dhamma practitioners who reach Nirodha Samapatti are expressed as having direct knowledge of said state; they investigate every aspect of it.

Your opinion that conceit follows any and all types of experience is in contradiction with sutta expressions about practitioners who reach Nirodha Samapatti.

In addition, you have no idea WHAT I experienced - or how I experienced it - making your observations on it very shallow and superficial.
Don´t cling to experience!
The level of conceit one must have to say “all experiences are fabricated by the conceit of “I am” is astonishing.

You have to be so conceited to say “I have experienced every possible experience and I can say that they are all conditioned by conceit”.

Do you realize how inherently conceited that is.

And to turn around and say, “anyone who expresses a view otherwise must be full of the conceit of “I am” - because I have experienced every experience.” - THAT is ASTONISHINGLY conceited.

And to further say, “It is only by getting hit in the head with a brick and losing all consciousness for any period of time that we transcend the conceit of I am (because it is not an experience)” - THAT is an ASTONISHINGLY fool hearty thing to say.

Nirodha Samapatti is to be experienced by the wise - this is what the suttas suggest!!!
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Re: Is there consciousness in Nirodha Samāpatti?

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I have heard that on one occasion, when the Blessed One was newly Self-awakened, he was staying at Uruvela on the bank of the Nerañjara River, at the foot of the Goatherd's Banyan Tree. Then, while he was alone and in seclusion, this line of thinking arose in his awareness: "This Dhamma that I have attained is deep, hard to see, hard to realize, peaceful, refined, beyond the scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be-experienced by the wise. But this generation delights in attachment, is excited by attachment, enjoys attachment. For a generation delighting in attachment, excited by attachment, enjoying attachment, this/that conditionality and dependent co-arising are hard to see. This state, too, is hard to see: the resolution of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all acquisitions, the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding. And if I were to teach the Dhamma and if others would not understand me, that would be tiresome for me, troublesome for me. https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html"
Cling to experience. It is the only thing that teaches.
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Re: Is there consciousness in Nirodha Samāpatti?

Post by pegembara »

confusedlayman wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 5:23 pm
rhinoceroshorn wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 4:45 pm
User1249x wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 4:21 pm When you wake up from a dream you are no longer percepient of the dream-world-existence, you are percepient of the worldly existence. One perception arises as another perception ceases.

When entering cessation, you are no longer percepient of worldly existence, you are percepient of its cessation.
One perception arises as another perception ceases.

This was the best explanation I read. Thank you :hug:
It's a great loss for the community not to have you here anymore actively.
you are not perceptient of cessation as it lies above neither perception nor non perception state
Yes. You cannot perceive while in the "cessation of perception and feeling" but only after coming out of it(in my opinion). Just like you do not perceive being operated on under general anaesthesia and you do not perceive cessation either when counting down while being put under. You can only infer that you were "unconscious" during the surgery after being told afterwards/feeling the pain or watching videos of your operation; being "dead to the world" and yet still alive.

There is no awareness in the state of cessation; only after emerging.
Sariputta entered & remained in the dimension of nothingness. Whatever qualities there are in the dimension of nothingness — the perception of the dimension of nothingness, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness, desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention — he ferreted them out one after another. Known to him they arose, known to him they remained, known to him they subsided.

"Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, Sariputta entered & remained in the cessation of feeling & perception. Seeing with discernment, his fermentations were totally ended. He emerged mindfully from that attainment. On emerging mindfully from that attainment, he regarded the past qualities that had ceased & changed:

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
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Re: Is there consciousness in Nirodha Samāpatti?

Post by Pondera »

rhinoceroshorn wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 2:55 am I had quoted suttas, but they are not so explicit.
Instead, I'm going to quote Ven. Pesala.
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote: Fri Aug 30, 2019 5:36 am
alfa wrote: Fri Aug 30, 2019 3:52 amSo nirvana = cessation of consciousness. :anjali:
I don't think so. What I understood is that it is the cessation of feeling and perception. One who is enjoying a cessation experience in this very life is not unconscious like someone who is in a coma or dead. They are fully conscious of the object of nibbāna.
:goodpost: :woohoo:
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Re: Is there consciousness in Nirodha Samāpatti?

Post by Pondera »

pegembara wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 6:36 am
confusedlayman wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 5:23 pm
rhinoceroshorn wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 4:45 pm

This was the best explanation I read. Thank you :hug:
It's a great loss for the community not to have you here anymore actively.
you are not perceptient of cessation as it lies above neither perception nor non perception state
Yes. You cannot perceive while in the "cessation of perception and feeling" but only after coming out of it(in my opinion). Just like you do not perceive being operated on under general anaesthesia and you do not perceive cessation either when counting down while being put under. You can only infer that you were "unconscious" during the surgery after being told afterwards/feeling the pain or watching videos of your operation; being "dead to the world" and yet still alive.

There is no awareness in the state of cessation; only after emerging.
Sariputta entered & remained in the dimension of nothingness. Whatever qualities there are in the dimension of nothingness — the perception of the dimension of nothingness, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness, desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention — he ferreted them out one after another. Known to him they arose, known to him they remained, known to him they subsided.

"Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, Sariputta entered & remained in the cessation of feeling & perception. Seeing with discernment, his fermentations were totally ended. He emerged mindfully from that attainment. On emerging mindfully from that attainment, he regarded the past qualities that had ceased & changed:

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
1. “Seeing with discernment, his fermentations were totally ended”

How does one “see with discernment” if one has been hit in the head with a brick unconscious.

2. “He emerged mindfully”

When does he become “mindful”? Is it the exact moment after the experience? Or is it the more obvious interpretation that he was mindful the whole time?

Keep in “mind” that “awareness release” is the goal of the path. One cannot release their awareness if they’ve been hit over the head with a brick unconscious.

Would you equate Nirodha Samapatti with being under anaesthetic?

How incredibly odd ...

🤔-a
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Re: Is there consciousness in Nirodha Samāpatti?

Post by pegembara »

Pondera wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 7:03 am 1. “Seeing with discernment, his fermentations were totally ended”

How does one “see with discernment” if one has been hit in the head with a brick unconscious.

2. “He emerged mindfully”

When does he become “mindful”? Is it the exact moment after the experience? Or is it the more obvious interpretation that he was mindful the whole time?

Keep in “mind” that “awareness release” is the goal of the path. One cannot release their awareness if they’ve been hit over the head with a brick unconscious.

Would you equate Nirodha Samapatti with being under anaesthetic?

How incredibly odd ...

🤔-a
One who is enjoying a cessation experience in this very life is not unconscious like someone who is in a coma or dead. They are fully conscious of the object of nibbāna.
Cessation of what? Sights, sounds, smells, taste, touch, mental objects ie. sankharas/conditioned. You mean dead to sensory experiences.
So instead of dependent origination, you have dependent cessation? Ending of the "world" as it were. Everything is going, going, gone but awareness remains.
What is left? Nibbana/unconditioned.....?Citta/released awareness :shock:
But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one.

"'Everything exists': That is one extreme. 'Everything doesn't exist': That is a second extreme. Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma via the middle: From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrication...

"Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness...

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
So this cessation of "consciousness" is not what most people would consider as being unconscious but can still mean being dead to the world.


Likewise in Anattalakkhana Sutta the cessation of consciousnesses(eye, ear, nose ,tongue, tactile and mind) does not mean being unconscious:
"Bhikkhus, how do you conceive it: is form permanent or impermanent?" — "Impermanent, venerable Sir." — "Now is what is impermanent painful or pleasant?" — "Painful, venerable Sir." — "Now is what is impermanent, what is painful since subject to change, fit to be regarded thus: 'This is mine, this is I, this is my self'"? — "No, venerable sir."

"Is feeling permanent or impermanent?...

"Is perception permanent or impermanent?...

"Are determinations permanent or impermanent?...

"Is consciousness[ess] permanent or impermanent?"

What is your opinion?
Last edited by pegembara on Mon Jul 06, 2020 4:56 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Is there consciousness in Nirodha Samāpatti?

Post by rhinoceroshorn »

At this point I think I am not even sure anymore.
I was reading other Buddhist forums and this matter is absolutely divisive and controversial. Some people who experienced Nirodha say it's unconscious, others say it's totally conscious.

I assume both experiences are valid.
Eyes downcast, not footloose,
senses guarded, with protected mind,
not oozing — not burning — with lust,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
Image
See, Ānanda! All those conditioned phenomena have passed, ceased, and perished. So impermanent are conditions, so unstable are conditions, so unreliable are conditions. This is quite enough for you to become disillusioned, dispassionate, and freed regarding all conditions.
Dīgha Nikāya 17
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