Possible to lose jhana?

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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confusedlayman
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Possible to lose jhana?

Post by confusedlayman »

is it possible? Why it is?
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
User1249x
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Re: Possible to lose jhana?

Post by User1249x »

Lose in the sense of not being able to experience certain states, sure you can lose it. You lose the balance of mind, get too excited, too distracted or something like that and it might take whoknowshowlong until you straighten it out.
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confusedlayman
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Re: Possible to lose jhana?

Post by confusedlayman »

User1249x wrote: Fri Sep 04, 2020 11:17 am Lose in the sense of not being able to experience certain states, sure you can lose it. You lose the balance of mind, get too excited, too distracted or something like that and it might take whoknowshowlong until you straighten it out.
Not in case of nor expeirencing certain states, but able to expeirence with so much difficulty compared to earlier days :tantrum: :embarassed: :( :weep: :roll:
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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DooDoot
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Re: Possible to lose jhana?

Post by DooDoot »

confusedlayman wrote: Fri Sep 04, 2020 11:27 am :tantrum:
Let it go. It is unlikely u ever experienced jhana based on your posts about your imaginings about it. This Mahayana teaching may be appropriate and helpful for u: Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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DooDoot
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Re: Possible to lose jhana?

Post by DooDoot »

User1249x wrote: Fri Sep 04, 2020 11:17 am Lose in the sense of not being able to experience certain states, sure you can lose it. You lose the balance of mind, get too excited, too distracted or something like that and it might take whoknowshowlong until you straighten it out.
Yes, a certain current internet bhikkhu used to be exceptionally radiant and I recall once seeing an old video of him meditating, where his neck/throat elongated & his consciousness both dropped into his body & rose into his brain. But now, he appears obese, unhealthy & tired due to non-meditation pursuits & worldly evangelism to politicized puthujjana audiences. Obviously, there is the impression he has not maintained or protected his former attainment; per the 4th Right Effort. However, I trust he could return to jhana if intended and would have to clean out those stressful sankharas.

A certain way to lose jhana permanently is to damage the physical body; where breathing & consciousness do not flow correctly. Practising yoga or other esoteric breath manipulations can do this. Or I cannot comment on exactly what happened to Ajahn Chah but he became disabled in his old age due to physical disease. There are suttas that refer to "unimpaired sense faculties", such as AN 6.96. Keep in mind jhana is called "rupa jhana" because it appears related to a purified physical body/nervous system that generates rapture when purified of unwholesome sankharas & is stilled.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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rhinoceroshorn
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Re: Possible to lose jhana?

Post by rhinoceroshorn »

Isn't the eightfold noble path a path of practice? You'll only have progress if you practice, otherwise how? It is not just related to jhānas. How do you develop right speech, right action, right thought, right mindfulness without facing situations which are opportunities to apply them? Be it giving kind words, not killing a cockroach, not thinking thoughts of violence, or simply recognizing when you have a hindrance.
And if you don't practice them without having attained any stage of enlightenment, it seems you will gradually resume your old habits. Decline.
Therefore, if you don't practice jhānas, it is expected that you decline in it too. :buddha1:
Eyes downcast, not footloose,
senses guarded, with protected mind,
not oozing — not burning — with lust,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
Image
See, Ānanda! All those conditioned phenomena have passed, ceased, and perished. So impermanent are conditions, so unstable are conditions, so unreliable are conditions. This is quite enough for you to become disillusioned, dispassionate, and freed regarding all conditions.
Dīgha Nikāya 17
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confusedlayman
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Re: Possible to lose jhana?

Post by confusedlayman »

rhinoceroshorn wrote: Fri Sep 04, 2020 9:01 pm Isn't the eightfold noble path a path of practice? You'll only have progress if you practice, otherwise how? It is not just related to jhānas. How do you develop right speech, right action, right thought, right mindfulness without facing situations which are opportunities to apply them? Be it giving kind words, not killing a cockroach, not thinking thoughts of violence, or simply recognizing when you have a hindrance.
if you don't practice them without having attained any stage enlightenment, it seems you will gradually resume your old habits. Decline.
Therefore, if you don't practice jhānas, it is expected that you decline in it too. :buddha1:
:goodpost: thanks.. i dont want to live a holy life without mastering the 4 jhanas. I look forward to consistancy
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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confusedlayman
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Re: Possible to lose jhana?

Post by confusedlayman »

what vism say about doing jhana as lay?
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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mikenz66
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Re: Possible to lose jhana?

Post by mikenz66 »

confusedlayman wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 3:16 pm what vism say about doing jhana as lay?
As far as I can tell, the Visuddhimagga only addresses monastics.

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Re: Possible to lose jhana?

Post by SteRo »

confusedlayman wrote: Fri Sep 04, 2020 10:57 am is it possible? Why it is?
Of course because jhana isn't insight and thus temporarily absent hindrances can arise again.
Cleared. αδόξαστος.
santa100
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Re: Possible to lose jhana?

Post by santa100 »

confusedlayman wrote:is it possible? Why it is?
Sure. Jhana in and of itself is still a conditioned phenomena, hence still not immuned from Anicca.
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Re: Possible to lose jhana?

Post by Slowlearner5 »

DooDoot wrote: Fri Sep 04, 2020 8:38 pm
User1249x wrote: Fri Sep 04, 2020 11:17 am Lose in the sense of not being able to experience certain states, sure you can lose it. You lose the balance of mind, get too excited, too distracted or something like that and it might take whoknowshowlong until you straighten it out.
Yes, a certain current internet bhikkhu used to be exceptionally radiant and I recall once seeing an old video of him meditating, where his neck/throat elongated & his consciousness both dropped into his body & rose into his brain.
I'm interested in this, does the neck have to elongate and did you recognise some subtle expression in the face to know consciousness drops into the body. Is that a sign of developed sukha rising up? Thanks.
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DooDoot
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Re: Possible to lose jhana?

Post by DooDoot »

Slowlearner5 wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 12:29 am consciousness drops into the body. Is that a sign of developed sukha rising up?
Its consciousness dropping into the body through the throat with the breathing, which occurs from letting go.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
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Re: Possible to lose jhana?

Post by Spiny Norman »

confusedlayman wrote: Fri Sep 04, 2020 11:27 am
User1249x wrote: Fri Sep 04, 2020 11:17 am Lose in the sense of not being able to experience certain states, sure you can lose it. You lose the balance of mind, get too excited, too distracted or something like that and it might take whoknowshowlong until you straighten it out.
Not in case of nor expeirencing certain states, but able to expeirence with so much difficulty compared to earlier days :tantrum: :embarassed: :( :weep: :roll:
It might help to "reset" and go back to basics. Allow a more natural development.
It can feel like one step forward and two back at times. And shit happens (Second Truth).
Also, you don't have to get bogged down in the technicalities of jhana, you can just develop some solid samadhi, and see where it leads. You can treat it more like an adventure than a set of "levels" to be achieved. More like an exploration than a set of tasks.
And don't be discouraged by negative or belittling comments about your progress so far.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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Re: Possible to lose jhana?

Post by SunWuKong »

Everyone goes in and out of "jhana factors" from the moment the mind becomes calmed and quieted. There isn't "losing" and "winning" - instead it's more like getting on a wave and riding - then going back out for the next wave. Similarly, rupa jhanas come and go too. I have heard like someone going into 4th jhana for 15 seconds, 15 minutes, and hour, or several months. I imagine that arupa jhanas are like this too. It's not something you construct mentally. It takes up your whole "being" so to speak

:buddha1:
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