Dhamma Wheel Buddhist Forum

Something I haven't really thought about before. When someone masters a jhāna, say the 3rd or 4th, do they still have to go through the prior jhānas when they meditate or can they go straight into that attainment?

Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:40 pm Something I haven't really thought about before. When someone masters a jhāna, say the 3rd or 4th, do they still have to go through the prior jhānas when they meditate or can they go straight into that attainment?

Probably a heretical view, but I regard these states as continuously available.
So it's about accessing, rather than developing.

There is a Sutta to say that you can go to any of these states at Will once you master it.

SarathW wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 10:02 pm There is a Sutta to say that you can go to any of these states at Will once you master it.

Is there a secret code word? And do you get the code with bogus claims of stream entry on the Internet?

SarathW wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 10:02 pm There is a Sutta to say that you can go to any of these states at Will once you master it.

Only if you wear a mask, and have an app saying you are covid free.

Spiny Norman wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 10:09 pm

SarathW wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 10:02 pm There is a Sutta to say that you can go to any of these states at Will once you master it.

Is there a secret code word? And do you get the code with bogus claims of stream entry on the Internet?

Due to your outstanding achievements, I am giving you the code word right now

The secret word is 'nimitta'. If you remember well the nimitta (attunement) of a given jhāna, you can re-enter it again. See the Pabatteya Gavi Sutta:

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

(with nimitta translated as "theme").

It's sequential, they go through the first to the fourth. Just that they do it really fast and without effort, so it seems automatic and natural, what the suttas call "at will". No different than opening the door to your house and walking through the hall to get to your bedroom.

If you could skip jhanas, then the Buddha would skip jhanas as well.

Anyone saying otherwise doesn't understand how the 5 aggregates work and hasn't read the suttas.

Assaji wrote: ↑Fri Nov 20, 2020 9:30 am

Spiny Norman wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 10:09 pm

SarathW wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 10:02 pm There is a Sutta to say that you can go to any of these states at Will once you master it.

Is there a secret code word? And do you get the code with bogus claims of stream entry on the Internet?

Due to your outstanding achievements, I am giving you the code word right now

The secret word is 'nimitta'. If you remember well the nimitta (attunement) of a given jhāna, you can re-enter it again. See the Pabatteya Gavi Sutta:

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

(with nimitta translated as "theme").

Not that different to reliving (say) the memory of a beautiful sunrise.

Spiny Norman wrote: ↑Fri Nov 20, 2020 11:35 am Not that different to reliving (say) the memory of a beautiful sunrise.

It's indeed partly similar. The difference is that you repeatedly recall how the basis (ārammaṇa) is perceived in that jhāna, - along the continuum of de-perception.

access, first jhana, second, third

I don't know if 4th can go directly....

but formless can go directly from 5th onwards or each respectively I think

I've noticed with in flows and outflows that jhana is a realm or bhavana that is either self or other created the concept of "pure land" dwells in just such a place if one were to create it; however due to asvara attachments and delusions of notself, impermanance, and dukka... are quick to rise take root and destroy it due to inflows and outflows...

Wisdom of jhana would only say that one should plant a "buddha seed" there that once ripe will conquer duality.

Koan: Who is the repeater of the Buddhas name?

Is a well known cannon/kannon of work called the mumonkan among scholars of Zen/Ch'an.

I ceased to visit any jhana as a substantial reality to avoid the link of becoming better known as "mara" which people typically put at the top of bhavachakra which in my opinion is a wrong practice. As Yojhana requires knowing one's range and if such states are only seen as a dream and not real?

Then there arises the concepts of eternal-ism and nihilism see above the practice of planting a "buddha seed".

BlackMagic wrote: ↑Sat Dec 19, 2020 1:46 pm...jhana is a realm...

Aren't we just talking about meditative absorption? I believe jhana levels has been a popular - and modern/innovative in the way it's used - classifier in the Theravada to try to convey what happens during prolonged shamatha.

Ever study Buddhist cosmology and the beings that live in each of them?

One travels there in the jhana or meditative states of absorption in one's vihara or vehicle

Looking at yantra and mandala they are a cosmology, but they are in the three dimensional universe... as a depiction of it. Such a thing is better thought of as not existing within oneself. Only due to not wanting to bring back other beings by accident, as it can become cause for of quite a few problems, however not self impermanence and dukka are the three marks of existence when encountering other beings...

If they become spontaneously present as many traditions say? it's just a ghost. It will eventually return to the realm or lokka within the bhavana or universe given a certain amount of time.

The three worlds is typically seen as yantra/mandala and bhramin/bhrama...

Not all of these beings are noble many of them are like wild animals even in what can be seen as "human form" what Gotma Buddha reffered to as monkey mind; beings that have yet to be yoked by a good master. Other sutta make excuses like ...oh they are just "children playing" no difference as to fall into hell to attack etc noble beings, and this is typically why their masters drag them to such beings hoping to rd of them like a mother getting an abortion in the spiritual realm.

Assaji wrote: ↑Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:06 pm

Spiny Norman wrote: ↑Fri Nov 20, 2020 11:35 am Not that different to reliving (say) the memory of a beautiful sunrise.

It's indeed partly similar. The difference is that you repeatedly recall how the basis (ārammaṇa) is perceived in that jhāna, - along the continuum of de-perception.

No that is dragon swallowing the moon, eating and having sex fetid old corpses, chasing a flame that has been extinguished.

When I got the "hot iron ball that cannot be swallowed or spit out" I thought I knew something.