is lite jhana even jhana?

[coconut]

Jhanas arise naturally when you become aware of the mechanisms and habits in your mind that produce suffering and you abandon them.

It always begins with vitakka and vicara, which is your thoughts.

A mind beyond judgements,
Watches and understands.
Know that the body is a fragile jar,
And make a castle of your mind.
In every trial
Let understanding fight for you
To defend what you have won.
For soon the body is discarded,
Then what does it feel?
A useless log of wood, it lies on the
ground,
Then what does it know?
Your worst enemy cannot harm you
As much as your own thoughts,
unguarded.
But once mastered,
No one can help you as much,
Not even your father or your mother.

thanks.. may I get source of quote? its inspiring

Dhammapada under the mind section

[BrokenBones]

I myself felt the highest bliss with complete disappearance of 5 sense, body and 6 six input (no thoughts but aware) ... I think lite jhana dont have these attributes which means the lite jhana must be gross and lower attainment than this. I dont want to come to any conclusion or declare anything

I've had similar experiences which fooled me for a good while into thinking I had attained something worthwhile. A reasonable analogy between the oneness concentration and jhana would run thus...

A oneness concentration can only be appreciated after the event... a bit like watching a movie of yourself having a good time, but you weren't really there when it was happening.
Jhana is having a great time but you're the director and know exactly what's going on.

Metta

[Ceisiwr]

The pre-requisite for first jhana is 1) seclusion from unwholesome mental qualities 2) seclusion from sensuality

Abandoning the hindrances and seclusion from the 5 strings of sensuality, the 5 senses, yes with directed and sustained thought on the nimitta, on form.

[coconut]

The pre-requisite for first jhana is 1) seclusion from unwholesome mental qualities 2) seclusion from sensuality

Abandoning the hindrances and seclusion from the 5 strings of sensuality, the 5 senses, yes with directed and sustained thought on the nimitta, on form.

Seems like a polluted Vissuddhimagga interpretation.

“Mendicants, an ethical person, who has fulfilled ethical conduct, need not make a wish: ‘May I have no regrets!’ It’s only natural that an ethical person has no regrets. When you have no regrets you need not make a wish: ‘May I feel joy!’ It’s only natural that joy springs up when you have no regrets. When you feel joy you need not make a wish: ‘May I experience rapture!’ It’s only natural that rapture arises when you’re joyful. When your mind is full of rapture you need not make a wish: ‘May my body become tranquil!’ It’s only natural that your body becomes tranquil when your mind is full of rapture. When your body is tranquil you need not make a wish: ‘May I feel bliss!’ It’s only natural to feel bliss when your body is tranquil. When you feel bliss you need not make a wish: ‘May my mind be immersed in samādhi!’ It’s only natural for the mind to be immersed in samādhi when you feel bliss. When your mind is immersed in samādhi you need not make a wish: ‘May I truly know and see!’ It’s only natural to truly know and see when your mind is immersed in samādhi. When you truly know and see you need not make a wish: ‘May I become disillusioned and dispassionate!’ It’s only natural to become disillusioned and dispassionate when you truly know and see. When you’re disillusioned and dispassionate you need not make a wish: ‘May I realize the knowledge and vision of freedom!’ It’s only natural to realize the knowledge and vision of freedom when you’re disillusioned and dispassionate.

[Ceisiwr]

Seems like a polluted Vissuddhimagga interpretation.

Vissuddhimagga, Vimuttimagga, Theravāda commentaries and if I’m not mistaken Sarvāstivāda too and of course, suttavadin also. Your quote is about what leads to Jhana, which is absorption into 1 perception. By temporarily leaving the 5 senses you temporarily blindfold Mara.

[coconut]

Seems like a polluted Vissuddhimagga interpretation.

Vissuddhimagga, Vimuttimagga, Theravāda commentaries and if I’m not mistaken Sarvāstivāda too and of course, suttavadin also. Your quote is about what leads to Jhana, which is absorption into 1 perception. By temporarily leaving the 5 senses you temporarily blindfold Mara.

There's no text in the suttas that say "directed and sustained thought on the nimitta, on form"

You misinterpret the quote I referenced.

[Ceisiwr]

Seems like a polluted Vissuddhimagga interpretation.

Vissuddhimagga, Vimuttimagga, Theravāda commentaries and if I’m not mistaken Sarvāstivāda too and of course, suttavadin also. Your quote is about what leads to Jhana, which is absorption into 1 perception. By temporarily leaving the 5 senses you temporarily blindfold Mara.

There's no text in the suttas that say "directed and sustained thought on the nimitta, on form"

You misinterpret the quote I referenced.

Every Jhana definition defines it as applied and sustained thoughts. Nimitta in this context is the sign of increasing samadhi, which can take various forms depending upon the individual. A total light. A constant sensation, like a breeze. Similar descriptions are found in the Upanishads. Your sutta quote outlines access concentration leading into full blown absorption into the specific object of meditation which becomes a totality of perception.

During anapanasati, with practice, the mind can become locked onto the sensation of the breath. A hindrance can arise, but the power of the well trained mind will keep it fixated on the singular perception. You can literally feel this magnetic force pulling you back into the perception. Then, a flash of light which will begin to fill the perceptual field. If skilled it will become total. If not it will last a moment and then will fall away.

[coconut]

Vissuddhimagga, Vimuttimagga, Theravāda commentaries and if I’m not mistaken Sarvāstivāda too and of course, suttavadin also. Your quote is about what leads to Jhana, which is absorption into 1 perception. By temporarily leaving the 5 senses you temporarily blindfold Mara.

There's no text in the suttas that say "directed and sustained thought on the nimitta, on form"

You misinterpret the quote I referenced.

Every Jhana definition defines it as applied and sustained thoughts. Nimitta in this context is the sign of increasing samadhi, which can take various forms depending upon the individual. A total light. A constant sensation. Similar descriptions are found in the Upanishads. Your sutta quote outlines access concentration leading into full blown absorption into the specific object of meditation which becomes a totality of perception.

During anapanasati, with practice, the mind can become locked onto the sensation of the breath. A hindrance can arise, but the power of the well trained mind will keep it fixated on the singular perception. Then, a flash of light.

That's your interpretation based on a mash of views from different sources.

In the suttas, nimittas are used as strategies against the 5 hindrances.

The Buddha describes escaping the 5 hindrances like escaping jail, a gang, starvation, etc..

When one escapes the 5 hindrances, pamojja (joy) is through the roof, and combined with being secluded from sensuality one is able to calm down and refine that gross/rough joy that is pamojja and settle into piti, which is further refined into sukha, which then results in ekaggata which then officially makes it samadhi.

The pre-requisite for ekaggata (and thus samadhi) is samathanimtta and abyagganimitta. These two arise together because when you're ecastatic that you've escaped jail, it's impossible to be distracted by the external.

This has nothing to do with "focusing on a nimitta to attain jhana" which is your interpretation.

[BrokenBones]

Yes... the repetition of access concentration in the suttas is very trying

Metta

[Ceisiwr]

That's your interpretation based on a mash of views from different sources.

That’s not my sole interpretation. It’s also my experience combined with the interpretation of elders from differing traditions, down the centuries, plus what the suttas say themselves.

In the suttas, nimittas are used as strategies against the 5 hindrances.

Yes and no. As a perception of increasing samadhi it is focused on, however they manifest for the person, until full absorption is reached and the hindrances are suppressed.

The Buddha describes escaping the 5 hindrances like escaping jail, a gang, starvation, etc..

Yes.

When one escapes the 5 hindrances, pamojja (joy) is through the roof, and combined with being secluded from sensuality one is able to calm down and refine that gross/rough joy that is pamojja and settle into piti, which is further refined into sukkha, which then results in ekaggata which then officially makes it samadhi.

Which all occurs when the nimitta appears, in access concentration bar samadhi which is the entry into the total singular perception.

This has nothing to do with "focusing on a nimitta to attain jhana" which is your interpretation.

Perceptions of diversity are always and forever a hindrance to Jhana. The nimitta is 1 perception only.

[Ceisiwr]

“When I understood that doubt, loss of focus, dullness and drowsiness, terror, excitement, discomfort, excessive energy, overly lax energy, longing, perception of diversity, and excessive concentration on forms are corruptions of the mind, I gave them up.

I thought: ‘I’ve given up my mental corruptions. Now let me develop immersion in three ways.’ I developed immersion while placing the mind and keeping it connected; without placing the mind, but just keeping it connected; without placing the mind or keeping it connected; with rapture; without rapture; with pleasure; with equanimity.”

MN 128

[coconut]

That's your interpretation based on a mash of views from different sources.

That’s not my sole interpretation. It’s also my experience combined with the interpretation of elders, from differing traditions, down the centuries plus what the suttas say themselves.

In the suttas, nimittas are used as strategies against the 5 hindrances.

Yes and no. As a perception of increasing samadhi it is focused on, however they manifest for the person, until full absorption is reached and the hindrances are suppressed.

The Buddha describes escaping the 5 hindrances like escaping jail, a gang, starvation, etc..

Yes.

When one escapes the 5 hindrances, pamojja (joy) is through the roof, and combined with being secluded from sensuality one is able to calm down and refine that gross/rough joy that is pamojja and settle into piti, which is further refined into sukkha, which then results in ekaggata which then officially makes it samadhi.

Which all occurs when the nimitta appears, in access concentration bar samadhi which is the entry into the total singular perception.

This has nothing to do with "focusing on a nimitta to attain jhana" which is your interpretation.

Perceptions of diversity are always and forever a hindrance to Jhana. The nimitta is 1 perception only.

Just misinterpretions like "perceptions of diversity" which I've already discussed with you in the past and don't care to repeat.

And yes, one can brute force their way into first jhana, I've also done that in the past by "locking onto the breath" until a white orb nimitta arises and then locking onto that and then getting absorbed into that.

But that doesn't destroy the fetters and it doesn't lead to insight and there's actually a sutta about brute forcing your way into jhana.

Someone who has understood identity view, how it leads to stress, does not attain jhanas via brute forcing and "locking on" to objects, as that is stressful and a form of clinging and grasping.

[Ceisiwr]

Just misinterpretions like "perceptions of diversity" which I've already discussed with you in the past and don't care to repeat.

The text is quite clear that diversity of perception is one of the hindrances, corruptions of the mind, that needs to be overcome before even the 1st Jhana.

But that doesn't destroy the fetters and it doesn't lead to insight and there's actually a sutta about brute forcing your way into jhana.

What I’m discussing has nothing to do with brute force. It comes from letting go.

[coconut]

Just misinterpretions like "perceptions of diversity" which I've already discussed with you in the past and don't care to repeat.

The text is quite clear that diversity of perception is one of the hindrances, corruptions of the mind, that needs to be overcome before even the 1st Jhana.

As I said, I've already discussed this with you in the past, and I believe also Assaji tried to explain to you. .

Regardless, this is where our conversation ends as it is usually at this point that a Puthujana remains confused and cannot go higher despite their jhana attainments, since they don't have faith in the Buddha Dhamma from the get go, and must return to square one and the basics, which they won't do because they remain entrenteched and trapped in a web of views.

[coconut]

What I’m discussing has nothing to do with brute force. It comes from letting go.

"letting go" and "locked on" is a contradiction in terms. Think deeply about that.