is lite jhana even jhana?

[confusedlayman]

What I’m discussing has nothing to do with brute force. It comes from letting go.

"letting go" and "locked on" is a contradiction in terms. Think deeply about that.

locked on to bliss can be termed as let gone of suffering, locked on to equanimity can be termed as let gone of pleasure and pain..let gone of everything leads to 9th jhana which is the end

[coconut]

What I’m discussing has nothing to do with brute force. It comes from letting go.

"letting go" and "locked on" is a contradiction in terms. Think deeply about that.

locked on to bliss can be termed as let gone of suffering, locked on to equanimity can be termed as let gone of pleasure and pain..let gone of everything leads to 9th jhana which is the end

The two are mutually exclusive, you can't get rid of fire with more fire.

Mahasi's "momentary concentratation" is equally stressful.

"Fixing" and "Moving" both are stressful.

[Ceisiwr]

As I said, I've already discussed this with you in the past, and I believe also Assaji tried to explain to you. .

Indeed and in light of the text you were quite wrong.

Regardless, this is where our conversation ends as it is usually at this point that a Puthujana remains confused and cannot go higher despite their jhana attainments, since they don't have faith in the Buddha Dhamma from the get go, and must return to square one and the basics, which they won't do because they remain entrenteched and trapped in a web of views.

Rather than attempting to put me down and laude yourself you could try to just stick to the topic at hand.

"letting go" and "locked on" is a contradiction in terms. Think deeply about that.

Not at all. You simply let go of wanting the breath, of wanting Jhana, of chasing the breath in or out and so on. Then, the mind becomes calm and remains with the breath until it reaches a point of being fully anchored to the breath.

[coconut]

As I said, I've already discussed this with you in the past, and I believe also Assaji tried to explain to you. .

Indeed and in light of the text you were quite wrong.

Regardless, this is where our conversation ends as it is usually at this point that a Puthujana remains confused and cannot go higher despite their jhana attainments, since they don't have faith in the Buddha Dhamma from the get go, and must return to square one and the basics, which they won't do because they remain entrenteched and trapped in a web of views.

Rather than attempting to put me down and laude yourself you could try to just stick to the topic at hand.

"letting go" and "locked on" is a contradiction in terms. Think deeply about that.

Not at all. You simply let go of wanting the breath, of wanting Jhana, of chasing the breath in or out and so on. Then, the mind becomes calm and remains with the breath until it reaches a point of being fully anchored to the breath.

I wasn't speaking about you personally, do you think I care about your identity as a person? I was talking about anyone who is a puthujanna, And it's true, nothing I can do to help someone who can't be helped. All that can happen is that their circumstances line up well enough to see the error in their ways, which doesn't involve anything or any doing on my part.


Good luck.

[Ceisiwr]

I wasn't speaking about you personally

do you think I care about your identity as a person? I was talking about anyone who is a puthujanna, And it's true, nothing I can do to help someone who can't be helped. All that can happen is that their circumstances line up well enough to see the error in their ways, which doesn't involve anything or any doing on my part.

A shame that you are ducking out, but that’s your choice of course.

[coconut]

I wasn't speaking about you personally

do you think I care about your identity as a person? I was talking about anyone who is a puthujanna, And it's true, nothing I can do to help someone who can't be helped. All that can happen is that their circumstances line up well enough to see the error in their ways, which doesn't involve anything or any doing on my part.

A shame that you are ducking out, but that’s your choice of course.

A shame for you maybe, but there's nothing to gain for myself. I've seen how you argue, and it's a waste of time.

[Ceisiwr]

A shame for you maybe, but there's nothing to gain for myself. I've seen how you argue, and it's a waste of time.

I had others, i.e. the audience, more in mind myself.

[coconut]

A shame for you maybe, but there's nothing to gain for myself. I've seen how you argue, and it's a waste of time.

I had others, i.e. the audience, more in mind myself.

I don't indulge in fantasies like that.

[Ceisiwr]

A shame for you maybe, but there's nothing to gain for myself. I've seen how you argue, and it's a waste of time.

I had others, i.e. the audience, more in mind myself.

I don't indulge in fantasies like that.

Sorry what fantasy?

[coconut]

I had others, i.e. the audience, more in mind myself.

I don't indulge in fantasies like that.

Sorry what fantasy?

The fantasy of an audience you have to perform to. When I'm writing to you then I'm talking to you, what other people think is irrelevant to me.

[Ceisiwr]

I don't indulge in fantasies like that.

Sorry what fantasy?

The fantasy of an audience you have to perform to. When I'm writing to you then I'm talking to you, what other people think is irrelevant to me.

This is a social media page. Of course there is an audience. It’s not a private conversation. People come here to engage in debate and to read said debates, among other things, so they can learn. I attempted to debate you, you ducked out. That is a shame for anyone who wished to learn about Jhana and the arguments surrounding them. Hardly a fantasy. Anyway, you said you wish to leave so i suspect I shouldn’t have any further replies?

[coconut]

Sorry what fantasy?

The fantasy of an audience you have to perform to. When I'm writing to you then I'm talking to you, what other people think is irrelevant to me.

This is a social media page. Of course there is an audience. People come here to engage in debate and to read said debates, so they can learn. I attempted to debate you, you ducked out. That is a shame for anyone who wished to learn about Jhana and the arguments surrounding them. Hardly a fantasy. Anyway, you said you wish to leave so i suspect I shouldn’t have any further replies?

I said that any further discussion about that topic would be fruitless for you. If anyone wishes to know something they can always ask, I don't need to imagine/fantasize about imaginary people, and trust me I receive several PMs to my inbox as it is.

[Ceisiwr]

I said that any further discussion about that topic would be fruitless for you. If anyone wishes to know something they can always ask, I don't need to imagine/fantasize about imaginary people,

I’m still bemused as to why you think there being an audience is a fantasy when this is a social media page, but ok I mean another aspect is to bear in mind that since there will be a wide audience of people it’s best to conduct ourselves in the best possible manner, lest we give off a bad impression about Buddhism to the public.

and trust me I receive several PMs to my inbox as it is.

No one cares about how many PMs you receive. This isn’t a popularity contest.

[coconut]

I said that any further discussion about that topic would be fruitless for you. If anyone wishes to know something they can always ask, I don't need to imagine/fantasize about imaginary people,

I’m still bemused as to why you think there being an audience is a fantasy when this is a social media page, but ok I mean another aspect is to bear in mind that since there will be a wide audience of people it’s best to conduct ourselves in the best possible manner, lest we give off a bad impression about Buddhism to the public.

and trust me I receive several PMs to my inbox as it is.

No one cares about how many PMs you receive. This isn’t a popularity contest.

The point, which you did not understand, was that I'm quite busy with real people, and don't need to imagine an audience, not that I am popular. This is what I mean by the bad faith insincerity of your style of arguing when I said "I've seen how you argue", i.e. you never give anyone the benefit of doubt (you focus on the negative possible outcome/interpretation), you always make snide sarcastic remarks, and therefore it's a waste of time to speak with you. Why would anyone be masochistic enough to deal with such a person?

[Ceisiwr]

The point, which you did not understand, was that I'm quite busy with real people, and don't need to imagine an audience, not that I am popular.

The people who visit this page are real people. Many will be looking to understand Buddhism. It’s not a fantasy to be aware of that, and to be aware that how we conduct ourselves here impacts on how people will view Buddhism.

This is what I mean by the bad faith insincerity of your style of arguing when I said "I've seen how you argue", i.e. you never give anyone the benefit of doubt (you focus on the negative possible outcome/interpretation), you always make snide sarcastic remarks, and therefore it's a waste of time to speak with you. Why would anyone be masochistic enough to deal with such a person?

I think you are straying too far into discussing me now, which I doubt anyone here is really interested in. Both of us have also diverged from the topic at hand, so best to leave things here. I’ll give you the last word if you really need it.