Salivation and swallowing

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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anagaarika
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Salivation and swallowing

Post by anagaarika »

Hello my noble friends!

I´ve encountered a very annoying issue recently. Currently, I´m on sort of a private retreat in the mountains which means I have enough time to meditate (I try to stick to the 3 x 1 hour session per day scheme). I have great mental clarity and my focus is getting really solid, but here´s the thing - although I had meditated (in patches) years before I committed to the eightfold path, I have virtually never faced problems with salivation and swallowing (maybe in the very beginnings). I didn´t face them even one, two weeks ago - but now it seems as if my body built some kind of "reflex" or defensive structure which triggers when I shift my attention to breath. Sometimes it´s better, sometimes it´s worse, but it starts to cause me some distress as it clearly prevents me from going deeper which I think I could do quite easily now. I also noticed this does not happen when I concentrate on something else or switch to vipassana.

Of course I do believe that this hindrance will eventually be overcome, but I would still like to get some advice from someone more experienced. A lot of people say that one should just swallow mindfully and get back to the breath, but that still kind of disrupts the samadhi (or at least prevents it from deepening). Maybe I should change my meditation object for a while? Please advise!

Thank you!
sunnat
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Post by sunnat »

when that is happening I tuck a large towel into the neck of my tshirt, shirt, and drool/spit with a slightly drooping head. Also keep a tissue box next to you and always have one in the hand to occasionally quickly wipe. Drop the tissue and grab another one and keep going

Usually there is an underlying feeling that the salivation presages, so just let it be there. If there is an involuntary swallowing, just go back to the breath.
DarrenM
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Re: Salivation and swallowing

Post by DarrenM »

anagaarika wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 8:23 am Hello my noble friends!

I´ve encountered a very annoying issue recently. Currently, I´m on sort of a private retreat in the mountains which means I have enough time to meditate (I try to stick to the 3 x 1 hour session per day scheme). I have great mental clarity and my focus is getting really solid, but here´s the thing - although I had meditated (in patches) years before I committed to the eightfold path, I have virtually never faced problems with salivation and swallowing (maybe in the very beginnings). I didn´t face them even one, two weeks ago - but now it seems as if my body built some kind of "reflex" or defensive structure which triggers when I shift my attention to breath. Sometimes it´s better, sometimes it´s worse, but it starts to cause me some distress as it clearly prevents me from going deeper which I think I could do quite easily now. I also noticed this does not happen when I concentrate on something else or switch to vipassana.

Of course I do believe that this hindrance will eventually be overcome, but I would still like to get some advice from someone more experienced. A lot of people say that one should just swallow mindfully and get back to the breath, but that still kind of disrupts the samadhi (or at least prevents it from deepening). Maybe I should change my meditation object for a while? Please advise!

Thank you!
I think it will just stop on its own. Just ignore it and be patient. It happens to me every now and again for no apparent reason.

When I used to let it bother me it stayed longer.
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DooDoot
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Re: Salivation and swallowing

Post by DooDoot »

anagaarika wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 8:23 am problems with salivation and swallowing... it seems as if my body built some kind of "reflex" or defensive structure which triggers when I shift my attention to breath.
Two possibilities come to mind:

1. There is subtle catarrh (mucus) built up in the throat for a reason, such as from past smoking, hatha yoga practice, whatever.

2. When you shift your attention, you are pushing down with your forebrain and clenching your jaw, causing the alignment of your throat to change, which causes the breath to collide with the subtle catarrh (mucus) built up in the restricted throat
anagaarika wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 8:23 am I also noticed this does not happen when I concentrate on something else or switch to vipassana.
This supports the possibilities i speculated about.
anagaarika wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 8:23 am Of course I do believe that this hindrance will eventually be overcome
If you are concentrating wrongly & breathing wrongly via the clenched jaw suppression i mentioned above, you could make the matter worse.

In summary, the fact you "shift your attention" shows your concentration is wrong concentration. The proper practise of Anapanasati requires no attention shift but, instead, simply the quieting, stilling & letting go (softening) of the mind; plus the softening & non-exertion of the face muscles & jaw.

When the mind is soft & quiet, it automatically, without any volition, becomes aware of the in & out breathing.

The fact you claim samatha & vipassana are two different meditations supports my speculation what you call "samatha" is the practice of suppression.

What you call "vipassana" sounds like imaging you are aware of wandering thoughts. Real vipassana practice starts with experiencing the impermanence (coming & going; arising & passing) of the in & out breathing therefore is inseparable from samatha practice.

The Buddha taught samatha & vipassana are yoked evenly together (MN 149) when the Noble Eightfold Path is developed.

Suppression meditation is the practise of craving. Where as the Noble Eightfold Path is the abandonment of craving.
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coconut
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Re: Salivation and swallowing

Post by coconut »

Regarding op,

You're trying to brute force your way into samadhi, it's not going to work in the long run.

The Buddha teaches that mind precedes all states
Mind precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought. If with an impure mind a person speaks or acts suffering follows him like the wheel that follows the foot of the ox.

Mind precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought. If with a pure mind a person speaks or acts happiness follows him like his never-departing shadow.
or Thomas Bryrom translation
We are what we think.
All that we are arises with our
thoughts.
With our thoughts we make the world.
Speak or act with an impure mind
And trouble will follow you
As the wheel follows the ox that draws
the cart.
We are what we think.
All that we are arises with our
thoughts.
With our thoughts we make the world.
Speak or act with a pure mind
And happiness will follow you
As your shadow, unshakable

The only thing you should suppress is impure thoughts.
In the same way, a mendicant who is committed to the higher mind has coarse corruptions: bad bodily, verbal, and mental conduct. A sincere, capable mendicant gives these up, gets rid of, eliminates, and obliterates them.

When they’ve been given up and eliminated, there are middling corruptions: sensual, malicious, or cruel thoughts. A sincere, capable mendicant gives these up, gets rid of, eliminates, and obliterates them.

When they’ve been given up and eliminated, there are fine corruptions: thoughts of family, country, and being looked up to. A sincere, capable mendicant gives these up, gets rid of, eliminates, and obliterates them.

When they’ve been given up and eliminated, only thoughts about the teaching are left. That immersion is not peaceful or sublime or tranquil or unified, but is held in place by forceful suppression.

But there comes a time when that mind is stilled internally; it settles, unifies, and becomes immersed in samādhi. That immersion is peaceful and sublime and tranquil and unified, not held in place by forceful suppression. They become capable of realizing anything that can be realized by insight to which they extend the mind, in each and every case.
- Panner sutta

Your thoughts are what make your breath and mind restless. If you calm your thoughts (as per MN 20), you breath will naturally rest on a spot without any brute forcing required.

The second factor of the noble eightfold path is not Right Breath, but Right Thought.
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frank k
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Re: Salivation and swallowing

Post by frank k »

This is a common problem. It's quite common, in large group sits at a retreat, you hear a couple of yogis swallowing, and then it cascades into most of room. There's also a group energy, when many meditators sitting in close proximity, the energy circulating in the body is stronger.

The main cause here of the throat and chest blockage causing swallowing of saliva, is what I call jhana constipation. Energy channels partially or fully blocked.

I describe with many examples here:
https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... here.html
If you watch the video of the 8 extraordinary meridians, the 2nd one, that goes down from the top of head, down the face, neck, chest, is a big bottleneck every meditator has to go through.
I was swallowing saliva from blockage in this channel for many years.
When the blockage melts sufficiently, and you get a clear pathway from the head all the way down to the belly area,
that's when most people will get a taste of first jhana.

If you're going to ordain, you're keeping 8 precepts, and you're meditating 4+ hours of day and also many hours on top of that of noble silence, that will charge up your jhana battery building up force and heat, that will melt the blockages over time assuming you're meditating correctly. Depending on age, health, etc., can take anywhere from 3 months to 3 years to get a decent first and second jhana.

Just be patient and meditate correctly. Jhana constipation will pass naturally. The hard part is to relax the body when it's going through blockage discomfort and even pain. I had a spot in my mid/low back area that really hurt, but only when I meditate (correctly). Didn't hurt outside of that. Must have been 5 years, but when that blockage was gone, pain just completely vanished too.



anagaarika wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 8:23 am Hello my noble friends!

I´ve encountered a very annoying issue recently. Currently, I´m on sort of a private retreat in the mountains which means I have enough time to meditate (I try to stick to the 3 x 1 hour session per day scheme). I have great mental clarity and my focus is getting really solid, but here´s the thing - although I had meditated (in patches) years before I committed to the eightfold path, I have virtually never faced problems with salivation and swallowing (maybe in the very beginnings). I didn´t face them even one, two weeks ago - but now it seems as if my body built some kind of "reflex" or defensive structure which triggers when I shift my attention to breath. Sometimes it´s better, sometimes it´s worse, but it starts to cause me some distress as it clearly prevents me from going deeper which I think I could do quite easily now. I also noticed this does not happen when I concentrate on something else or switch to vipassana.

Of course I do believe that this hindrance will eventually be overcome, but I would still like to get some advice from someone more experienced. A lot of people say that one should just swallow mindfully and get back to the breath, but that still kind of disrupts the samadhi (or at least prevents it from deepening). Maybe I should change my meditation object for a while? Please advise!

Thank you!
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auto
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Re: Salivation and swallowing

Post by auto »

frank k wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 3:52 pm This is a common problem. It's quite common, in large group sits at a retreat, you hear a couple of yogis swallowing, and then it cascades into most
Which could be not a problem at all. In cultivation book there is talked about saliva, when it is running, it is to be gathered and then swallowed at once, correctly and it is suppose to be make sound.
There i also this that the saliva can fall back to breathing tube and it will trigger this incessant desire to cough(with some suction into belly, really weird intent to caugh) and if more lucky you can swallow it accompanied with distinct sound, can happen also when swallowing water and water tries to go wrong tube. Which i want to believe is this kammic experience of drowning but won't happen for real. I think these all are somehow related.
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frank k
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Re: Salivation and swallowing

Post by frank k »

That's a good point, I didn't mean to make the saliva issue seem like a deviant behavior.
Lots of saliva production is a good healthy thing - it usually shows your jhana battery is getting stronger.
Body shaking and tremors, prolific saliva, these are usually all very good signs on the way to jhana. Unfortunately there's quite a bit of misunderstanding about it and people view it like it's an aberrant, abnormal, or bad thing. On the contrary, if you're not experiencing that, unless you've already got jhana, then you should be wondering what your problem is if you aren't salivating prolifically and you can't feel winds and currents of energy flowing through your body more strongly and causing shaking and vibrations.

auto wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 4:33 pm
frank k wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 3:52 pm This is a common problem. It's quite common, in large group sits at a retreat, you hear a couple of yogis swallowing, and then it cascades into most
Which could be not a problem at all. In cultivation book there is talked about saliva, when it is running, it is to be gathered and then swallowed at once, correctly and it is suppose to be make sound.
There i also this that the saliva can fall back to breathing tube and it will trigger this incessant desire to cough(with some suction into belly, really weird intent to caugh) and if more lucky you can swallow it accompanied with distinct sound, can happen also when swallowing water and water tries to go wrong tube. Which i want to believe is this kammic experience of drowning but won't happen for real. I think these all are somehow related.
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dharmacorps
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Re: Salivation and swallowing

Post by dharmacorps »

This can be due to a change in diet or stomach issues.
auto
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Re: Salivation and swallowing

Post by auto »

frank k wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 5:09 pm That's a good point, I didn't mean to make the saliva issue seem like a deviant behavior.
Lots of saliva production is a good healthy thing - it usually shows your jhana battery is getting stronger.
Body shaking and tremors, prolific saliva, these are usually all very good signs on the way to jhana. Unfortunately there's quite a bit of misunderstanding about it and people view it like it's an aberrant, abnormal, or bad thing. On the contrary, if you're not experiencing that, unless you've already got jhana, then you should be wondering what your problem is if you aren't salivating prolifically and you can't feel winds and currents of energy flowing through your body more strongly and causing shaking and vibrations.
I agree that the shaking, vibration is because of weakness and effect from body healing itself from too much booze, too much noise, too little sleep, insomnia, intense work life etc. Include here also hearing voices, seeing hallucinations which could then help to get in what case the vibrations meant.

If to be well rest, normal. There is absolutely nothing felt, no effects <--correct starting point. Also it is correct starting point of speaking of any meditation signs what happen. I mean salivating in this stage also micro vibrations what doesn't shake body but what are more like concurrent discharges on countless points.
There is no difference on effects what happen on latter and former. Practice, meditation is no different from habitual actions and their results. Hallucinations are hallucinations also what science names hallucinations, meditation resulted hallucinations doesn't have greater significance than mental illness hallucination.
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salayatananirodha
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Re: Salivation and swallowing

Post by salayatananirodha »

needs more merit
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anagaarika
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Re: Salivation and swallowing

Post by anagaarika »

Friends, thanks for all your replies. The deadlock was broken the following day after I posted this question. If anyone can delete this thread as it is not relevant any more, please do so! :anjali:
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BlackMagic
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Re: Salivation and swallowing

Post by BlackMagic »

tongue right behind upper front teeth... lacking front teeth... flush to the upper palate.

Note the taste when the mouth fills...bitter...spit it out... sweet...swallow it.

With teeth swallow normal without teeth raise the nose towards the ceiling.
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