Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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confusedlayman
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Re: Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

Post by confusedlayman »

SteRo wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 6:49 am There is an access concentration preceding jhana but there isn't a jhana preceding jhana of same type.
Access concentration itself 5 sence off but no piti or sukha

Some practioners feel jhanaic bliss to lowest possible capacity when 5 sence are working and they call it lite jhana i think
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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DooDoot
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Re: Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

Post by DooDoot »

confusedlayman wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 7:05 am Access concentration itself 5 sence off but no piti or sukha
no. access concentration can have piti & sukha
confusedlayman wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 7:05 amSome practioners feel jhanaic bliss to lowest possible capacity when 5 sence are working and they call it lite jhana i think
no. there appears no such thing as "lite jhana" in any scripture.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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confusedlayman
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Re: Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

Post by confusedlayman »

DooDoot wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 11:27 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 7:05 am Access concentration itself 5 sence off but no piti or sukha
no. access concentration can have piti & sukha
confusedlayman wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 7:05 amSome practioners feel jhanaic bliss to lowest possible capacity when 5 sence are working and they call it lite jhana i think
no. there appears no such thing as "lite jhana" in any scripture.
Might have depends on how it is aroused
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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DooDoot
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Re: Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

Post by DooDoot »

confusedlayman wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 6:18 am Might have depends on how it is aroused
Piti is not "aroused" by volition.

Piti does not necessarily indicate jhana.

The absence of the five hindrances does not necessarily indicate jhana.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
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confusedlayman
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Re: Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

Post by confusedlayman »

DooDoot wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 7:08 am
confusedlayman wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 6:18 am Might have depends on how it is aroused
Piti is not "aroused" by volition.

Piti does not necessarily indicate jhana.

The absence of the five hindrances does not necessarily indicate jhana.
what is cause and condition for origination of Piti which is not there before its origination?
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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DooDoot
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Re: Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

Post by DooDoot »

confusedlayman wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 7:59 am what is cause and condition for origination of Piti which is not there before its origination?
:ugeek:
(4) He trains himself: calming the body-conditioner (the breathing) I shall breathe in. He trains himself: calming the body-conditioner (the breathing) I shall breathe out.

(5) He trains himself: thoroughly experiencing piti I shall breathe in. He trains himself: thoroughly experiencing piti I shall breathe out.

MN 118
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
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confusedlayman
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Re: Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

Post by confusedlayman »

DooDoot wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 2:02 am
confusedlayman wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 7:59 am what is cause and condition for origination of Piti which is not there before its origination?
:ugeek:
(4) He trains himself: calming the body-conditioner (the breathing) I shall breathe in. He trains himself: calming the body-conditioner (the breathing) I shall breathe out.

(5) He trains himself: thoroughly experiencing piti I shall breathe in. He trains himself: thoroughly experiencing piti I shall breathe out.

MN 118
How to do breathing evoking piti? How long it takes?
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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DooDoot
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Re: Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

Post by DooDoot »

confusedlayman wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 5:29 am How to do breathing evoking piti? How long it takes?
The more craving for piti, the longer time it takes. Sometimes this time is "forever" or "never"

For neighbourhood concentration piti, for one with right mindfulness (non-craving; non-clinging; non-judging; always in the present moment), allow 75 minutes of watching 99.9% of breaths

For jhana piti, allow 175 days of watching every breath for 7.5 hours per day

Piti is a reward for non-craving; not a reward for craving

:meditate:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
Nobodyisspecial
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Re: Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

Post by Nobodyisspecial »

Would anyone consider the possibility of lite kasinas that have no visual appearance? Definitely a different feel in the kasina jhanas practicing kasinas. Would anyone declare that as legitimate? Or the possibility of the first 3 jhanas without pleasure? Could that be legitimate or is jhana lite experiences disqualified?
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Re: Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

Post by confusedlayman »

DooDoot wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 7:44 am
confusedlayman wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 5:29 am How to do breathing evoking piti? How long it takes?
The more craving for piti, the longer time it takes. Sometimes this time is "forever" or "never"

For neighbourhood concentration piti, for one with right mindfulness (non-craving; non-clinging; non-judging; always in the present moment), allow 75 minutes of watching 99.9% of breaths

For jhana piti, allow 175 days of watching every breath for 7.5 hours per day

Piti is a reward for non-craving; not a reward for craving

:meditate:
according to sutta, monks and layman like citta can enter without difficulty in 1 or 2 minutes.. maybe buddha can get in 2 or 3 seconds...
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Re: Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

Post by pitithefool »

confusedlayman wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 4:21 pm
according to sutta, monks and layman like citta can enter without difficulty in 1 or 2 minutes.. maybe buddha can get in 2 or 3 seconds...
Yeah it shouldn't really take that long. BUT, that's based on your skill as a meditator, and it may take a VERY long time. The more you chase after it, the worse it will be and the more frustrated you'll get.
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DooDoot
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Re: Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

Post by DooDoot »

confusedlayman wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 4:21 pm according to sutta, monks and layman like citta can enter without difficulty in 1 or 2 minutes.. maybe buddha can get in 2 or 3 seconds...
which sutta? thanks
pitithefool wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 10:13 pm Yeah it shouldn't really take that long.
not for the fool & the confused
pitithefool wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 10:13 pmBUT, that's based on your skill as a meditator, and it may take a VERY long time.
for a mind as pure as the Buddha, it won't take long because there is no purifying of stored defilements occurring; as in the case of the fool & the confused not yet unable to dissolve the "I", "me" & "your" thoughts
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
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confusedlayman
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Re: Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

Post by confusedlayman »

DooDoot wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 4:43 am
confusedlayman wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 4:21 pm according to sutta, monks and layman like citta can enter without difficulty in 1 or 2 minutes.. maybe buddha can get in 2 or 3 seconds...
which sutta? thanks
pitithefool wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 10:13 pm Yeah it shouldn't really take that long.
not for the fool & the confused
pitithefool wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 10:13 pmBUT, that's based on your skill as a meditator, and it may take a VERY long time.
for a mind as pure as the Buddha, it won't take long because there is no purifying of stored defilements occurring; as in the case of the fool & the confused not yet unable to dissolve the "I", "me" & "your" thoughts
its not that easy to escape I thought
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
Nobodyisspecial
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Re: Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

Post by Nobodyisspecial »

This is a great subject.
1) jhana in Buddhism is about releasing into nibbana.
Which is transcendent liberation.
2) light jhana, or path of purification jhana in my opinion is about a holy sainthood. Freeing yourself from effluents. Overcoming delusion, ill will, and greed. And of course all the hindrances. Complete moral perfection, right?
3) please try the kasinas. They are taught very good in wisdom wide and deep. They are what you seeking in my opinion. The next step from light jhana to a jhana where they try to cremate you unsuccessfully (see path of purification) ha ha.

Great posts thank you
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Re: Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

Post by Slowlearner5 »

confusedlayman wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 7:59 am
DooDoot wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 7:08 am
confusedlayman wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 6:18 am Might have depends on how it is aroused
Piti is not "aroused" by volition.

Piti does not necessarily indicate jhana.

The absence of the five hindrances does not necessarily indicate jhana.
what is cause and condition for origination of Piti which is not there before its origination?
Hi CL just catching up on the threads.
Hey I think the Transcendental Dependant Arising translation touches on what is for me the mystery of piti. Not sure if it mentions the 5 levels of development of piti along the Samatta journey but that's one aspect.
I think I remember Faith may be a prerequisite and it's definition is vague for mine. For me it's to open the mind via reading or experiences in the world or in meditation. Not sure how pure or fit the body needs to be, like offered by those pilgrimages of purification such as the Camina, and to be sensitive to feeling it...those monk did and still do walk long distances, the body wakes up and changes from lots of miles.
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