Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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Akashad
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Re: Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

Post by Akashad »

I don't think you can because your switching objects.
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samseva
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Re: Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

Post by samseva »

"Jhāna-lite" is technically upacāra-samādhi (access-concentration). It's not jhāna, but happens just before jhāna, where the mind is concentrated and there is the absence of the hindrances, although not yet concentrated enough for it to be jhāna.

If you reach upacāra-samādhi, continue meditating, and you should eventually reach jhāna.
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Re: Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

Post by BrokenBones »

If you achieve sutta samadhi you would know to steer well clear of concentration samadhi... why would you abandon wisdom samadhi in exchange for a samadhi that is static and lacks discernment?

Concentrating on one spot/light/sensation won't develop any wisdom or understanding of the Dhamma, not least of all because you're forcefully ignoring the hindrances rather than dealing with them with wisdom and abandoning them.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

Post by Ceisiwr »

BrokenBones wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 2:33 pm If you achieve sutta samadhi you would know to steer well clear of concentration samadhi... why would you abandon wisdom samadhi in exchange for a samadhi that is static and lacks discernment?

Concentrating on one spot/light/sensation won't develop any wisdom or understanding of the Dhamma, not least of all because you're forcefully ignoring the hindrances rather than dealing with them with wisdom and abandoning them.
The hindrances are abandoned before absorption. You can’t do that without wisdom. When one experiences it then desire for sense objects is dropped, since nothing else compares. Wisdom is in seeing that even these powerfully lofty states are impermanent. There is lots of wisdom to be gained from said attainments.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

Post by Ceisiwr »

samseva wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 2:06 pm "Jhāna-lite" is technically upacāra-samādhi (access-concentration). It's not jhāna, but happens just before jhāna, where the mind is concentrated and there is the absence of the hindrances, although not yet concentrated enough for it to be jhāna.

If you reach upacāra-samādhi, continue meditating, and you should eventually reach jhāna.
Yes, I’ve had similar thoughts. It’s interesting that the absorption model can accommodate the other, thus showing some measure of tolerance, whilst the Jhana lite model doesn’t seem to be able to. Perhaps this is why we see such fanatical grotesqueries from that camp.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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samseva
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Re: Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

Post by samseva »

BrokenBones wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 2:33 pm If you achieve sutta samadhi you would know to steer well clear of concentration samadhi... why would you abandon wisdom samadhi in exchange for a samadhi that is static and lacks discernment?
No such things—completely made up terms.
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Re: Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

Post by BrokenBones »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 2:52 pm
samseva wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 2:06 pm "Jhāna-lite" is technically upacāra-samādhi (access-concentration). It's not jhāna, but happens just before jhāna, where the mind is concentrated and there is the absence of the hindrances, although not yet concentrated enough for it to be jhāna.

If you reach upacāra-samādhi, continue meditating, and you should eventually reach jhāna.
Yes, I’ve had similar thoughts. It’s interesting that the absorption model can accommodate the other, thus showing some measure of tolerance, whilst the Jhana lite model doesn’t seem to be able to. Perhaps this is why we see such fanatical grotesqueries from that camp.
How can sutta jhana possibly accommodate hard jhana?

One is Samma samadhi and the other isn't. No 'grotesqueries'... just a plain reading of the suttas without obfuscation and linguistic gymnastics.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

Post by Ceisiwr »

BrokenBones wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 10:29 pm
Do you think samadhi always means Jhana?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

Post by BrokenBones »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 10:35 pm
BrokenBones wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 10:29 pm
Do you think samadhi always means Jhana?
Samma Samadhi does.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

Post by Ceisiwr »

BrokenBones wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 10:57 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 10:35 pm
BrokenBones wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 10:29 pm
Do you think samadhi always means Jhana?
Samma Samadhi does.
Do you think samadhi always means Jhana?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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mikenz66
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Re: Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi BB
BrokenBones wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 2:33 pm If you achieve sutta samadhi you would know to steer well clear of concentration samadhi... why would you abandon wisdom samadhi in exchange for a samadhi that is static and lacks discernment?

Concentrating on one spot/light/sensation won't develop any wisdom or understanding of the Dhamma, not least of all because you're forcefully ignoring the hindrances rather than dealing with them with wisdom and abandoning them.
I'm afraid I don't recognise what you are describing in any of the texts I'm familiar with. Can you show me a passage where entry to the actual jhana involves concentrating on one spot? Some advocate focusing on, for example, the touch of breath at one spot as a preliminary step. Some don't. I've not seen any instructions where the jhana is said to entered while focusing on one spot, but perhaps I've not read widely enough.

I don't think I've got anywhere near an absorption jhana, probably not even a non-absorption jhana (what you call "sutta jhana"), so I can't comment from experience on the dangers or otherwise of a totally absorbed state, but I really don't see what you are concerned about. As far as I can tell, you'd have plenty of experience with non-absorbed jhana before letting go enough to go into an absorbed jhana, so it's not as if it's an either-or thing. Even with my low-quality samadhi experiences, I can see the usefulness of watching at the end of a sit while what little calm I have managed to develop slowly evaporates.

Ironically, I think my practice is actually similar to what you are advocating, since I don't think absorbed jhana is something I would achieve without a relatively long retreat, so I really don't worry about it. However, I know how different my mind is after a week of retreat, and for me it's rather obvious to extrapolate that several months would give a very different level of calm.


I do admit that it could be a problem if one was totally obsessed with achieving jhana (absorbed or not), to the exclusion development of other aspects of the path. That seems unlikely to be helpful. However, so far, noone has satisfactorily explained what problem I will have if I simply cultivate whatever level of calm I can. What downside there is if I don't think it is jhana? Even if it is jhana, it's not awakening. As Sariputta discerned in MN111: "He understood: ‘There is an escape beyond.’ And by repeated practice he knew for sure that there is."

In the end, it's about awakening. "With their mind ... purified and bright they..." (https://suttacentral.net/mn27).

:heart:
Mike
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Re: Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

Post by BrokenBones »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 11:07 pm
BrokenBones wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 10:57 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 10:35 pm

Do you think samadhi always means Jhana?
Samma Samadhi does.
Do you think samadhi always means Jhana?
I'll leave samadhi to you... I'm only interested in Samma Samadhi.
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samseva
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Re: Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

Post by samseva »

BrokenBones wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 10:29 pm One is Samma samadhi and the other isn't. No 'grotesqueries'... just a plain reading of the suttas without obfuscation and linguistic gymnastics.
How is it not sammā-samādhi? Do you have anything to support that, other than your own opinion?
BrokenBones wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 10:29 pm just a plain reading of the suttas without obfuscation and linguistic gymnastics.
Are you sure about that... ?
samseva wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 3:01 pm
BrokenBones wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 2:33 pm If you achieve sutta samadhi you would know to steer well clear of concentration samadhi... why would you abandon wisdom samadhi in exchange for a samadhi that is static and lacks discernment?
No such things—completely made up terms.
BrokenBones wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:10 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 11:07 pm Do you think samadhi always means Jhana?
I'll leave samadhi to you... I'm only interested in Samma Samadhi.
Contradictory, no? Samādhi is part of sammā-samādhi. It's difficult to see how someone could only be interested in sammā-samādhi, and not samādhi.
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Re: Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

Post by BrokenBones »

samseva wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 3:16 am
BrokenBones wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 10:29 pm One is Samma samadhi and the other isn't. No 'grotesqueries'... just a plain reading of the suttas without obfuscation and linguistic gymnastics.
How is it not sammā-samādhi? Do you have anything to support that, other than your own opinion?
BrokenBones wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 10:29 pm just a plain reading of the suttas without obfuscation and linguistic gymnastics.
Are you sure about that... ?
samseva wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 3:01 pm
BrokenBones wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 2:33 pm If you achieve sutta samadhi you would know to steer well clear of concentration samadhi... why would you abandon wisdom samadhi in exchange for a samadhi that is static and lacks discernment?
No such things—completely made up terms.
BrokenBones wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:10 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 11:07 pm Do you think samadhi always means Jhana?
I'll leave samadhi to you... I'm only interested in Samma Samadhi.
Contradictory, no? Samādhi is part of sammā-samādhi. It's difficult to see how someone could only be interested in sammā-samādhi, and not samādhi.
Ah! Maybe you're a Patanjali Samadhi man (woman?)... sounds about right.

The Buddha defined Samma Samadhi as the four jhanas... Samma Samadhi is the culmination of the eightfold path... why would I bother piddling around with other concentration practices?
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samseva
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Re: Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

Post by samseva »

BrokenBones wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 6:12 am The Buddha defined Samma Samadhi as the four jhanas... Samma Samadhi is the culmination of the eightfold path... why would I bother piddling around with other concentration practices?
So if you're not in jhāna, there is absolutely no samādhi/concentration?
And when one is not in jhāna, it's wrong concentration, according to you?
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