Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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samseva
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Re: Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

Post by samseva »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 10:44 pm Your claim was that the Jhana of Ajahn Brahm etc is without the senses. This isn’t the case, since 1 sense is still active.
Maybe this is why people like BrokenBones and frank are confused regarding jhāna. They maybe think there are 5 senses, when in Buddhist teachings and in reality, there are six (mind being the 6th). This would explain a lot.
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Re: Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

Post by BrokenBones »

samseva wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 3:36 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 10:44 pm Your claim was that the Jhana of Ajahn Brahm etc is without the senses. This isn’t the case, since 1 sense is still active.
Maybe this is why people like BrokenBones and frank are confused regarding jhāna. They maybe think there are 5 senses, when in Buddhist teachings and in reality, there are six (mind being the 6th). This would explain a lot.
The confusion comes from my take... 'abandoning sensual pleasures'... which would include the six senses... correct?

And your take... abandoning the five senses but leaving one intact (even if it has the discernment of a brick).

You seem to think that the first five senses are abandoned in the jhanas... where does it say this in the suttas.

Abandoning sensual pleasures is abandoning the desire (felt in the mind) for the sensual pleasure derived from the six senses.
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samseva
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Re: Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

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BrokenBones wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 4:02 am The confusion comes from my take... 'abandoning sensual pleasures'... which would include the six senses... correct?

And your take... abandoning the five senses but leaving one intact (even if it has the discernment of a brick).

You seem to think that the first five senses are abandoned in the jhanas... where does it say this in the suttas.

Abandoning sensual pleasures is abandoning the desire (felt in the mind) for the sensual pleasure derived from the six senses.
You're incorrectly interpreting it from the English.

The stock jhāna passage in the Suttas, of "abandoning sensual pleasures" deals with only five senses.
Here, secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, a bhikkhu enters and dwells in the first jhāna
Idha, bhikkhave, ariyasāvako vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkaṁ savicāraṁ vivekajaṁ pītisukhaṁ paṭhamaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati
The term kāma only deals with five senses:
And what, bhikkhus, is the gratification in the case of sensual pleasures? Bhikkhus, there are these five cords of sensual pleasure. What are the five? Forms cognizable by the eye that are wished for, desired, agreeable and likeable, connected with sensual desire, and provocative of lust. Sounds cognizable by the ear…Odours cognizable by the nose…Flavours cognizable by the tongue…Tangibles cognizable by the body that are wished for, desired, agreeable and likeable, connected with sensual desire, and provocative of lust. These are the five cords of sensual pleasure. Now the pleasure and joy that arise dependent on these five cords of sensual pleasure are the gratification in the case of sensual pleasures.
Ko ca, bhikkhave, kāmānaṁ assādo? Pañcime, bhikkhave, kāmaguṇā. Katame pañca? Cakkhuviññeyyā rūpā iṭṭhā kantā manāpā piyarūpā kāmūpasaṁhitā rajanīyā, sotaviññeyyā saddā …pe… ghānaviññeyyā gandhā … jivhāviññeyyā rasā … kāyaviññeyyā phoṭṭhabbā iṭṭhā kantā manāpā piyarūpā kāmūpasaṁhitā rajanīyā— ime kho, bhikkhave, pañca kāmaguṇā. Yaṁ kho, bhikkhave, ime pañca kāmaguṇe paṭicca uppajjati sukhaṁ somanassaṁ—ayaṁ kāmānaṁ assādo.
—MN 13
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Re: Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

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samseva wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 4:40 am ...

Sensual desires does not refer to the 5 cords of the senses (kamaguna), see my post here for detail: viewtopic.php?p=650329#p650329

Understanding the gratification of the senses is different than seclusion from sensual desire
There is only one battle that could be won, and that is the battle against the 3 poisons. Any other battle is a guaranteed loss because you're going to die either way.
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Re: Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

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un8- wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 4:44 am Sensual desires does not refer to the 5 cords of the senses (kamaguna)
It literally says it in the passage:
And what, bhikkhus, is the gratification in the case of sensual pleasures? Bhikkhus, there are these five cords of sensual pleasure. What are the five? Forms cognizable by the eye that are wished for, desired, agreeable and likeable, connected with sensual desire, and provocative of lust. Sounds cognizable by the ear…Odours cognizable by the nose…Flavours cognizable by the tongue…Tangibles cognizable by the body that are wished for, desired, agreeable and likeable, connected with sensual desire, and provocative of lust. These are the five cords of sensual pleasure. Now the pleasure and joy that arise dependent on these five cords of sensual pleasure are the gratification in the case of sensual pleasures.
Ko ca, bhikkhave, kāmānaṁ assādo? Pañcime, bhikkhave, kāmaguṇā. Katame pañca? Cakkhuviññeyyā rūpā iṭṭhā kantā manāpā piyarūpā kāmūpasaṁhitā rajanīyā, sotaviññeyyā saddā …pe… ghānaviññeyyā gandhā … jivhāviññeyyā rasā … kāyaviññeyyā phoṭṭhabbā iṭṭhā kantā manāpā piyarūpā kāmūpasaṁhitā rajanīyā— ime kho, bhikkhave, pañca kāmaguṇā. Yaṁ kho, bhikkhave, ime pañca kāmaguṇe paṭicca uppajjati sukhaṁ somanassaṁ—ayaṁ kāmānaṁ assādo.
What is being described is kāmānaṁ—kāmaguṇā is simply used to describe kāmānaṁ.

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Re: Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

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Here, AN 6.63:
And what is the diversity of sensual pleasures? Sensual desire for forms is one thing, sensual desire for sounds is another, sensual desire for odors still another, sensual desire for tastes still another, and sensual desire for tactile objects still another. This is called the diversity of sensual pleasures.
Katamā ca, bhikkhave, kāmānaṁ vemattatā? Añño, bhikkhave, kāmo rūpesu, añño kāmo saddesu, añño kāmo gandhesu, añño kāmo rasesu, añño kāmo phoṭṭhabbesu. Ayaṁ vuccati, bhikkhave, kāmānaṁ vemattatā.
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Re: Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

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And what is the diversity of sensual pleasures? Sensual desire for forms is one thing, sensual desire for sounds is another, sensual desire for odors still another, sensual desire for tastes still another, and sensual desire for tactile objects still another. This is called the diversity of sensual pleasures.
Katamā ca, bhikkhave, kāmānaṁ vemattatā? Añño, bhikkhave, kāmo rūpesu, añño kāmo saddesu, añño kāmo gandhesu, añño kāmo rasesu, añño kāmo phoṭṭhabbesu. Ayaṁ vuccati, bhikkhave, kāmānaṁ vemattatā.
  • Sensual desire for forms (kāmo rūpesu)
  • Sensual desire for sounds (kāmo saddesu)
  • Sensual desire for odors (kāmo gandhesu)
  • Sensual desire for tastes (kāmo rasesu)
  • Sensual desire tactile objects (kāmo phoṭṭhabbesu)
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Re: Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

Post by un8- »

samseva wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:13 am
It literally says it in the passage:


You obviously did not read my post. No, it's not the kamaguna. Read my post.
There is only one battle that could be won, and that is the battle against the 3 poisons. Any other battle is a guaranteed loss because you're going to die either way.
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Re: Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

Post by samseva »

un8- wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:43 am You obviously did not read my post. No, it's not the kamaguna. Read my post.
I did. Your post says nothing.

Read the actual Suttas instead.
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Re: Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

Post by un8- »

samseva wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:46 am
un8- wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:43 am You obviously did not read my post. No, it's not the kamaguna. Read my post.
I did. Your post says nothing.

Read the actual Suttas instead.
You obviously didn't since the Buddha says that sensual desire is not the objects in the world, nor has anything to do with the senses, but it's solely with a mans thoughts.

Seclusion from sensual desire is different than understanding the gratification and the drawbacks of the senses which is vipassana, you're conflating two different sets of theories and instructions.

Craving for sensual desire (kamatanha) refers to intense sensual obsession, and not simply wanting an object of the senses.

Just because you read the suttas doesn't mean you properly understood them.
There is only one battle that could be won, and that is the battle against the 3 poisons. Any other battle is a guaranteed loss because you're going to die either way.
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Re: Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

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un8- wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:51 am You obviously didn't
I did read your post. You're even going to deny that?
un8- wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:51 am since the Buddha says that sensual desire is not the objects in the world, nor has anything to do with the senses, but it's solely with a mans thoughts.

Seclusion from sensual desire is different than understanding the gratification and the drawbacks of the senses which is vipassana, you're conflating two different sets of theories and instructions.

Craving for sensual desire (kamatanha) refers to intense sensual obsession, and not simply wanting an object of the senses.

Just because you read the suttas doesn't mean you properly understood them.
What? Almost everything you're saying—including your long post in the other thread—is just your personal opinions.

Read the Suttas above, and actually post Suttas rather than your own opinions.
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Re: Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

Post by un8- »

samseva wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 6:10 am
un8- wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:51 am You obviously didn't
I did read your post. You're even going to deny that?
un8- wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:51 am since the Buddha says that sensual desire is not the objects in the world, nor has anything to do with the senses, but it's solely with a mans thoughts.

Seclusion from sensual desire is different than understanding the gratification and the drawbacks of the senses which is vipassana, you're conflating two different sets of theories and instructions.

Craving for sensual desire (kamatanha) refers to intense sensual obsession, and not simply wanting an object of the senses.

Just because you read the suttas doesn't mean you properly understood them.
What? Almost everything you're saying—including your long post in the other thread—is just your personal opinions.

Read the Suttas above, and actually post Suttas rather than your own opinions.
No they're direct sutta references in the post I linked.
There is only one battle that could be won, and that is the battle against the 3 poisons. Any other battle is a guaranteed loss because you're going to die either way.
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Re: Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

Post by samseva »

un8- wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 6:17 am No they're direct sutta references in the post I linked.
Half of the Pāḷi that you posted doesn't have references.

The rest of the post is your personal opinions, where you talk about sex, food, feces, owning gold and cattle, and taṇhā. It's a complete mess that doesn't say much.

Now, please leave me alone, or actually interact with posts in this thread, rather than directing people into trying to make sense of an unrelated post from an unrelated thread.
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Re: Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

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And even then, if the mind as the 6th of the senses would subside in jhāna, it would be impossible for there to be the mental factors of vitakka, vicāra, pīti, and sukha to arise.
Here, secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, a bhikkhu enters and dwells in the first jhāna, which consists of rapture and pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by thought and examination.
Idha, bhikkhave, ariyasāvako vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkaṁ savicāraṁ vivekajaṁ pītisukhaṁ paṭhamaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati
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Re: Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

Post by un8- »

samseva wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 6:32 am
un8- wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 6:17 am No they're direct sutta references in the post I linked.
Half of the Pāḷi that you posted doesn't have references.

The rest of the post is your personal opinions, where you talk about sex, food, feces, owning gold and cattle, and taṇhā. It's a complete mess that doesn't say much.

Now, please leave me alone, or actually interact with posts in this thread, rather than directing people into trying to make sense of an unrelated post from an unrelated thread.
I'll post the main sutta again for you

There are five varieties of sensuous pleasure.

pañcime bhikkhave kāmaguṇā

Visible objects known via the visual sense…​ tangible objects known via the tactile sense, all of which are likeable, loveable, pleasing, agreeable, connected with sensuous pleasure, and charming

cakkhuviññeyyā rūpā…​ kāyaviññeyyā phoṭṭhabbā iṭṭhā kantāmanāpā piyarūpā kāmupasaṃhitā rajaniyā.

These however are not sensuous yearnings.

Apica kho bhikkhave nete kāmā

In the [terminology of the] Noble One’s training system they are called the varieties of sensuous pleasure.

kāmaguṇā nāmete ariyassa vinaye vuccanti

The sensuous yearning of a man is his thoughts bound up with attachment.

Saṅkapparāgo purisassa kāmo

The world’s attractive things are not sensuous yearning

Nete kāmā yāni citrāni loke

The sensuous yearning of a man is his thoughts bound up with attachment.

Saṅkapparāgo purisassa kāmo

The world’s attractive things remain as they are

Tiṭṭhanti citrāni tatheva loke

The wise eliminate their hankering for them

Athettha dhīrā vinayanti chandan ti.

— A.3.411
Notice he says the objects and the sense organs are not sensual desires?

Hey look wisdomlib.org pali dictionary agrees too.
The texts often stress the fact that what fetters man to the world of the senses are not the sense-organs nor the sense-objects but lustful desire (chandarāga). On this see A.VI.63; S.XXXV.122, 191. - (App.).

https://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/kama#theravada
There is only one battle that could be won, and that is the battle against the 3 poisons. Any other battle is a guaranteed loss because you're going to die either way.
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