Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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samseva
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Re: Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

Post by samseva »

un8- wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 6:17 am No they're direct sutta references in the post I linked.
You're using the PTS Pāḷi, which has differences in punctuation and hyphens.

Either way, if you not going to spend 10 minutes explaining your point, I'm not going to take 1 hour of my time trying to make sense of your long post, of which 3/4 is unrelated to this thread.
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samseva
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Re: Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

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un8- wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 6:45 am Notice he says the objects and the sense organs are not sensual desires?

Hey look wisdomlib.org pali dictionary agrees too.
The texts often stress the fact that what fetters man to the world of the senses are not the sense-organs nor the sense-objects but lustful desire (chandarāga). On this see A.VI.63; S.XXXV.122, 191. - (App.).
https://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/kama#theravada
What's your point?
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Re: Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

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samseva wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 6:49 am
un8- wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 6:45 am Notice he says the objects and the sense organs are not sensual desires?

Hey look wisdomlib.org pali dictionary agrees too.
The texts often stress the fact that what fetters man to the world of the senses are not the sense-organs nor the sense-objects but lustful desire (chandarāga). On this see A.VI.63; S.XXXV.122, 191. - (App.).
https://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/kama#theravada
What's your point?
As I wrote "Sensual desires does not refer to the 5 cords of the senses (kamaguna), but to a man's thoughts", and "you're conflating seeing the gratification of the senses with seclusion of sensual desires".

Seclusion from sensual desires means seclusion from unwholesome thoughts, not closing your eyes and other senses.
There is only one battle that could be won, and that is the battle against the 3 poisons. Any other battle is a guaranteed loss because you're going to die either way.
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samseva
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Re: Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

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un8- wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 6:52 am As I wrote "Sensual desires does not refer to the 5 cords of the senses (kamaguna), but to a man's thoughts", and "you're conflating seeing the gratification of the senses with seclusion of sensual desires".

Seclusion from sensual desires means seclusion from unwholesome thoughts, not closing your eyes and other senses.
samseva wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:16 am Here, AN 6.63:
And what is the diversity of sensual pleasures? Sensual desire for forms is one thing, sensual desire for sounds is another, sensual desire for odors still another, sensual desire for tastes still another, and sensual desire for tactile objects still another. This is called the diversity of sensual pleasures.
Katamā ca, bhikkhave, kāmānaṁ vemattatā? Añño, bhikkhave, kāmo rūpesu, añño kāmo saddesu, añño kāmo gandhesu, añño kāmo rasesu, añño kāmo phoṭṭhabbesu. Ayaṁ vuccati, bhikkhave, kāmānaṁ vemattatā.
kāma = 5 senses, not 6.
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Re: Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

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samseva wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 6:34 am And even then, if the mind as the 6th of the senses would subside in jhāna, it would be impossible for there to be the mental factors of vitakka, vicāra, pīti, and sukha to arise.
Here, secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, a bhikkhu enters and dwells in the first jhāna, which consists of rapture and pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by thought and examination.
Idha, bhikkhave, ariyasāvako vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkaṁ savicāraṁ vivekajaṁ pītisukhaṁ paṭhamaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati
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Re: Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

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samseva wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 6:54 am
un8- wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 6:52 am As I wrote "Sensual desires does not refer to the 5 cords of the senses (kamaguna), but to a man's thoughts", and "you're conflating seeing the gratification of the senses with seclusion of sensual desires".

Seclusion from sensual desires means seclusion from unwholesome thoughts, not closing your eyes and other senses.
samseva wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:16 am Here, AN 6.63:
And what is the diversity of sensual pleasures? Sensual desire for forms is one thing, sensual desire for sounds is another, sensual desire for odors still another, sensual desire for tastes still another, and sensual desire for tactile objects still another. This is called the diversity of sensual pleasures.
Katamā ca, bhikkhave, kāmānaṁ vemattatā? Añño, bhikkhave, kāmo rūpesu, añño kāmo saddesu, añño kāmo gandhesu, añño kāmo rasesu, añño kāmo phoṭṭhabbesu. Ayaṁ vuccati, bhikkhave, kāmānaṁ vemattatā.

Again, that deals with gratification of the senses notice it says "diversity"? All he's saying is that there's a diversity of sensual pleasures. Sensual pleasures are not sensual desires. That has nothing to do with sensual desires which are thoughts, I'll repost the quote, but this time bigger

There are five varieties of sensuous pleasure.

pañcime bhikkhave kāmaguṇā

Visible objects known via the visual sense…​ tangible objects known via the tactile sense, all of which are likeable, loveable, pleasing, agreeable, connected with sensuous pleasure, and charming

cakkhuviññeyyā rūpā…​ kāyaviññeyyā phoṭṭhabbā iṭṭhā kantāmanāpā piyarūpā kāmupasaṃhitā rajaniyā.

These however are not sensuous yearnings.

Apica kho bhikkhave nete kāmā

In the [terminology of the] Noble One’s training system they are called the varieties of sensuous pleasure.

kāmaguṇā nāmete ariyassa vinaye vuccanti

The sensuous yearning of a man is his thoughts bound up with attachment.

Saṅkapparāgo purisassa kāmo

The world’s attractive things are not sensuous yearning

Nete kāmā yāni citrāni loke

The sensuous yearning of a man is his thoughts bound up with attachment.

Saṅkapparāgo purisassa kāmo

The world’s attractive things remain as they are

Tiṭṭhanti citrāni tatheva loke

The wise eliminate their hankering for them

Athettha dhīrā vinayanti chandan ti.

— A.3.411
There is only one battle that could be won, and that is the battle against the 3 poisons. Any other battle is a guaranteed loss because you're going to die either way.
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Re: Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

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un8- wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 6:59 am The sensuous yearning of a man is his thoughts bound up with attachment.

Saṅkapparāgo purisassa kāmo
You say I'm guilty of something, yet you do the exact same thing as what you accuse me of.

The yearning and thoughts are saṅkapparāgo. Says nothing about kāmo.

And even then, this isn't relevant. I'm saying kāma is 5 senses, not 6.
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Re: Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

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samseva wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 7:05 am
un8- wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 6:59 am The sensuous yearning of a man is his thoughts bound up with attachment.

Saṅkapparāgo purisassa kāmo
You say I'm guilty of something, yet you do the exact same thing as what you accuse me of.

The yearning and thoughts are saṅkapparāgo. Says nothing about kāmo.

And even then, this isn't relevant. I'm saying kāma is 5 senses, not 6.
I originally quoted your post here
samseva wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 4:40 am
BrokenBones wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 4:02 am The confusion comes from my take... 'abandoning sensual pleasures'... which would include the six senses... correct?

And your take... abandoning the five senses but leaving one intact (even if it has the discernment of a brick).

You seem to think that the first five senses are abandoned in the jhanas... where does it say this in the suttas.

Abandoning sensual pleasures is abandoning the desire (felt in the mind) for the sensual pleasure derived from the six senses.
You're incorrectly interpreting it from the English.

The stock jhāna passage in the Suttas, of "abandoning sensual pleasures" deals with only five senses.
Here, secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, a bhikkhu enters and dwells in the first jhāna
Idha, bhikkhave, ariyasāvako vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkaṁ savicāraṁ vivekajaṁ pītisukhaṁ paṭhamaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati
The term kāma only deals with five senses:
And what, bhikkhus, is the gratification in the case of sensual pleasures? Bhikkhus, there are these five cords of sensual pleasure. What are the five? Forms cognizable by the eye that are wished for, desired, agreeable and likeable, connected with sensual desire, and provocative of lust. Sounds cognizable by the ear…Odours cognizable by the nose…Flavours cognizable by the tongue…Tangibles cognizable by the body that are wished for, desired, agreeable and likeable, connected with sensual desire, and provocative of lust. These are the five cords of sensual pleasure. Now the pleasure and joy that arise dependent on these five cords of sensual pleasure are the gratification in the case of sensual pleasures.
Ko ca, bhikkhave, kāmānaṁ assādo? Pañcime, bhikkhave, kāmaguṇā. Katame pañca? Cakkhuviññeyyā rūpā iṭṭhā kantā manāpā piyarūpā kāmūpasaṁhitā rajanīyā, sotaviññeyyā saddā …pe… ghānaviññeyyā gandhā … jivhāviññeyyā rasā … kāyaviññeyyā phoṭṭhabbā iṭṭhā kantā manāpā piyarūpā kāmūpasaṁhitā rajanīyā— ime kho, bhikkhave, pañca kāmaguṇā. Yaṁ kho, bhikkhave, ime pañca kāmaguṇe paṭicca uppajjati sukhaṁ somanassaṁ—ayaṁ kāmānaṁ assādo.
—MN 13
BrokenBones was right.

Do you agree that the 5 hindrances must be overcome to enter first jhana?
There is only one battle that could be won, and that is the battle against the 3 poisons. Any other battle is a guaranteed loss because you're going to die either way.
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Re: Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

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un8- wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 7:10 am Do you agree that the 5 hindrances must be overcome to enter first jhana?
Of course the five hindrances need to be overcome to enter jhāna.

Do you think "seclusion from sensuous pleasure" in the formula of jhāna, includes seclusion from: visual forms, sounds, odors, tastes, touch—as well as the mind?
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Re: Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

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samseva wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 7:18 am
un8- wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 7:10 am Do you agree that the 5 hindrances must be overcome to enter first jhana?
Of course the five hindrances need to be overcome to enter jhāna.

Do you think seclusion from sensuous pleasure in the formula of jhāna, includes seclusion from: visual forms, sounds, odors, tastes, touch—as well as the mind?
Do you agree that right thought comes before right concentration?
There is only one battle that could be won, and that is the battle against the 3 poisons. Any other battle is a guaranteed loss because you're going to die either way.
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Re: Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

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un8- wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 7:19 am Do you agree that right thought comes before right concentration?
I answered your question, at least answer mine before asking me another one.
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Re: Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

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samseva wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 7:20 am
un8- wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 7:19 am Do you agree that right thought comes before right concentration?
I answered your question, at least answer mine before asking me another one.
Sure, you wrote
Do you think seclusion from sensuous pleasure in the formula of jhāna, includes seclusion from: visual forms, sounds, odors, tastes, touch—as well as the mind?
I think not everything is sensual "pleasure", and that "pleasure" refers to certain things, so hearing the pleasant sound of a bird singing doesn't qualify as a pleasure, but most of all yes, the mind as in thoughts cannot have obsessive thoughts about certain things that qualify as pleasure.

Now answer mine please.
There is only one battle that could be won, and that is the battle against the 3 poisons. Any other battle is a guaranteed loss because you're going to die either way.
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Re: Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

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un8- wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 7:24 am
Do you think seclusion from sensuous pleasure in the formula of jhāna, includes seclusion from: visual forms, sounds, odors, tastes, touch—as well as the mind?
I think not everything is sensual "pleasure", and that "pleasure" refers to certain things, so hearing the pleasant sound of a bird singing doesn't qualify as a pleasure, but most of all yes, the mind as in thoughts cannot have obsessive thoughts about certain things that qualify pleasure.
You didn't answer the question. I didn't ask about birds, or obsessive thoughts.

"Seclusion from sensuous pleasure"—vivicceva kāmehi—in the formula of jhāna, either includes the sense of the mind, or it doesn't.
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Re: Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

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samseva wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 7:29 am
un8- wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 7:24 am
Do you think seclusion from sensuous pleasure in the formula of jhāna, includes seclusion from: visual forms, sounds, odors, tastes, touch—as well as the mind?
I think not everything is sensual "pleasure", and that "pleasure" refers to certain things, so hearing the pleasant sound of a bird singing doesn't qualify as a pleasure, but most of all yes, the mind as in thoughts cannot have obsessive thoughts about certain things that qualify pleasure.
You didn't answer the question. I didn't ask about birds, or obsessive thoughts.

"Seclusion from sensuous pleasure"—vivicceva kāmehi—in the formula of jhāna, either includes the sense of the mind, or it doesn't.
Only sensual desire thoughts are abandoned and other unwholesome thoughts, not all thoughts. Now answer mine please.
There is only one battle that could be won, and that is the battle against the 3 poisons. Any other battle is a guaranteed loss because you're going to die either way.
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Re: Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

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un8- wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 7:19 am Do you agree that right thought comes before right concentration?
No—sammā-diṭṭhi and sammā-samādhi are Path factors, not mental factors.

I don't know exactly where you're taking this, but I'm definitely not wasting another hour discussing with you.

Whichever combination you want to take me along, based on your opinion, I'm not interested.
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