Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
Adalbert
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Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

Post by Adalbert »

I've been gone for 6 years and the Dhamma Wheel is still rolling :woohoo:

Regardless of all the controversy and any other claims, it seems agreed upon that all the jhana states (be it Leigh Brasington's Lite Jhanas, Pa-Auk's Visuddhimagga Jhanas or Bhante G.'s Jhanas which seem to be somewhere in the middle) greatly improve your concentration even after you emerge from them. Has anyone tried to use Lite Jhanas as a stepping stone towards something more absorbed and one-pointed?

I've been trying Leigh's instructions (from his book) lately and I kinda stumbled onto this possibility. To be clear, I don't mean switching from Leigh's 4th Jhana to a deeper 1st jhana. I mean spending some time in Lite Jhanas, going back to the touch of the breath and staying with the breath much longer this time, and then proceeding as normal when developing a deeper jhana.

In fact, I don't think that Lite Jhanas are even necessary. In my experience it's possible to go through the emotional progression that Leigh describes (joy -> happiness -> equanimity) even without as much concentration as he writes about. That progression, I find, still is incredibly rewarding and leaves the mind much calmer.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Since Jhana lite methods make use of multiple perceptions they are essentially a distraction. Jhana is of 1 perception and 1 perception only.

Also, welcome back.
“The mental and material are really here,
But here there is no human being to be found,
For it is void and merely fashioned like a doll—
Just suffering piled up like grass and sticks.”


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Adalbert
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Re: Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

Post by Adalbert »

Since Jhana lite methods make use of multiple perceptions they are essentially a distraction. Jhana is of 1 perception and 1 perception only.
I don't see how that statement answers or is even relevant to my post.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Adalbert wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:19 pm
Since Jhana lite methods make use of multiple perceptions they are essentially a distraction. Jhana is of 1 perception and 1 perception only.
I don't see how that statement answers or is even relevant to my post.
You asked if you can use Jhana lite to enter into actual Jhana. I gave you a reason why I think that isn’t the case.
“The mental and material are really here,
But here there is no human being to be found,
For it is void and merely fashioned like a doll—
Just suffering piled up like grass and sticks.”


Visuddhimagga
Adalbert
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Re: Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

Post by Adalbert »

Since Jhana lite methods make use of multiple perceptions they are essentially a distraction
Multi-perception techniques can still be a helpful preparation before deep samadhi.

For example, low-concentration metta (i.e., when you visualise or verbalise, rather than focusing on the feeling itself) also uses multiple perceptions. Yet both my (very limited) experience and the instructions I have received in Pa-Auk Tawya suggest that doing a bit of that before switching to anapanasati might help eventually achieve one-pointedness.
I gave you a reason why I think that isn’t the case.
Sorry, I didn't realise that was the point you were making and mistook it for a statement of allegiance to one of the camps in the jhana controversy.
BrokenBones
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Re: Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

Post by BrokenBones »

Adalbert wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 5:52 pm I've been gone for 6 years and the Dhamma Wheel is still rolling :woohoo:

Regardless of all the controversy and any other claims, it seems agreed upon that all the jhana states (be it Leigh Brasington's Lite Jhanas, Pa-Auk's Visuddhimagga Jhanas or Bhante G.'s Jhanas which seem to be somewhere in the middle) greatly improve your concentration even after you emerge from them. Has anyone tried to use Lite Jhanas as a stepping stone towards something more absorbed and one-pointed?

I've been trying Leigh's instructions (from his book) lately and I kinda stumbled onto this possibility. To be clear, I don't mean switching from Leigh's 4th Jhana to a deeper 1st jhana. I mean spending some time in Lite Jhanas, going back to the touch of the breath and staying with the breath much longer this time, and then proceeding as normal when developing a deeper jhana.

In fact, I don't think that Lite Jhanas are even necessary. In my experience it's possible to go through the emotional progression that Leigh describes (joy -> happiness -> equanimity) even without as much concentration as he writes about. That progression, I find, still is incredibly rewarding and leaves the mind much calmer.
No.
If someone has attained the jhana as described by the Buddha (labeled 'lite' by some 🙄) then one would expect them to have developed enough wisdom not to touch senseless jhana with a ten foot barge pole.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Adalbert wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:33 pm
Since Jhana lite methods make use of multiple perceptions they are essentially a distraction
Multi-perception techniques can still be a helpful preparation before deep samadhi.

For example, low-concentration metta (i.e., when you visualise or verbalise, rather than focusing on the feeling itself) also uses multiple perceptions. Yet both my (very limited) experience and the instructions I have received in Pa-Auk Tawya suggest that doing a bit of that before switching to anapanasati might help eventually achieve one-pointedness.
You are simply describing techniques to starve and deal with the hindrances, which is already covered in the suttas. Nothing much to do with Jhana lite methods.
Sorry, I didn't realise that was the point you were making and mistook it for a statement of allegiance to one of the camps in the jhana controversy.
Well, it was that too. Obviously I don't recognise Jhana lite as a valid method of practice. Mostly, it seems to me, its concocted by western lay converts. The easiest way to Jhana is, after all, to simply redefine them ;)
“The mental and material are really here,
But here there is no human being to be found,
For it is void and merely fashioned like a doll—
Just suffering piled up like grass and sticks.”


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Inedible
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Re: Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

Post by Inedible »

Yes. Going into a concentration meditation and coming out of it repeatedly will take you deeper every time you go back in. It is a commonly used approach to maximize your results.
BrokenBones
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Re: Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

Post by BrokenBones »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 9:29 pm

Well, it was that too. Obviously I don't recognise Jhana lite as a valid method of practice. Mostly, it seems to me, its concocted by western lay converts. The easiest way to Jhana is, after all, to simply redefine them ;)
Do you mean like redefining suttas and Pali words to fit into a Brahmanical offshoot?

It's very simple... some people practice jhana and achieve wisdom. Others practice a different form of jhana and get carried off in an ambulance 🤪
coconut
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Re: Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

Post by coconut »

Regarding op,


There is no such thing as "lite jhana" or "hard jhana" in the suttas that is samma samadhi.

“If while he is walking, standing, sitting, and lying down a bhikkhu is free from covetousness and ill will, free from sloth and torpor, free from restlessness and worry, and has abandoned doubts, his energy becomes strong and unflagging, his mindfulness is alert and unclouded, his body is calm and undistressed, his mind concentrated and one-pointed. A bhikkhu who in such a manner is ardent and afraid of wrongdoing is called constantly energetic and resolute.”



Controlled while walking,
Controlled while standing,
Controlled while sitting,
Controlled while reclining,
Controlled in bending and
Stretching his limbs—
Above, across, and below,
As far as the world extends,
A bhikkhu observes how things occur,
The arising and passing of the aggregates.

Living thus ardently,
Of calm and quiet conduct,
Ever mindful, he trains in the course
Of calm tranquillity of mind.
Such a bhikkhu is said to be
One who is ever resolute.
- iti 111

There is no doubt different types of jhanas, but there is only one type of samma samadhi jhanas which is based on purification of thoughts..

This was said by the Lord…

“Bhikkhus, if while walking a sensual thought or a thought of ill will or an aggressive thought arises in a bhikkhu, and if he tolerates it and does not reject it, does not dispel it and get rid of it and bring it to an end, that bhikkhu—who in such a manner is lacking in ardour and unafraid of wrongdoing—is called constantly lazy and indolent. If while standing … If while sitting … If while lying down a sensual thought or a thought of ill will or an aggressive thought arises in a bhikkhu, and if he tolerates it and does not reject it … that bhikkhu is called constantly lazy and indolent.

“But if while walking … standing … sitting … lying down a sensual thought or a thought of ill will or an aggressive thought arises in a bhikkhu and he does not tolerate it, but rejects it, dispels it, gets rid of it, and brings it to an end, that bhikkhu—who in such a manner is ardent and afraid of wrongdoing—is called constantly energetic and resolute.”

Whether walking or standing,
Sitting or lying down
Whoever thinks such thoughts
That are evil and worldly—
He is following a wrong path,
Infatuated with delusive things.
Such a bhikkhu cannot reach
Enlightenment which is supreme.

Whether walking or standing,
Sitting or lying down,
Whoever overcomes these thoughts,
Delighting in the quelling of thoughts—
Such a bhikkhu is able to reach
Enlightenment which is supreme.
- iti 110
Inedible
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Re: Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

Post by Inedible »

Someone once said that the people who say a thing can't be done should get out of the way of the people who are doing it. This applies all over this forum. Use what you can do now to gain more access to abilities in the future. Don't let anyone tell you it isn't good enough.
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confusedlayman
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Re: Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

Post by confusedlayman »

focus on bliss and relax in bliss ur lite turns to hard I think
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

Post by Ceisiwr »

confusedlayman wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 3:01 pm focus on bliss and relax in bliss ur lite turns to hard I think
That isn’t it.
“The mental and material are really here,
But here there is no human being to be found,
For it is void and merely fashioned like a doll—
Just suffering piled up like grass and sticks.”


Visuddhimagga
Slowlearner5
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Re: Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

Post by Slowlearner5 »

Wondering if with say experiencing peace or serenity or tranquility and while watching the nice objects which may arise someday, concentration therefore starts to develop with the fascination including sometimes merging with the peaceful object. one could project onto that experience as jhana but with the doubts about that claim therefore there is this new category of lite jhana. so maybe it's on the continuum but from reading it's not yet samadhi. Maybe a few years of maturing and purification to go for it to get stronger. Yeh you can be relaxed and concentrate watching any object and centralise and merge over it, that's good sitting I assume.
BrokenBones
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Re: Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

Post by BrokenBones »

Slowlearner5 wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:17 pm Wondering if with say experiencing peace or serenity or tranquility and while watching the nice objects which may arise someday, concentration therefore starts to develop with the fascination including sometimes merging with the peaceful object. one could project onto that experience as jhana but with the doubts about that claim therefore there is this new category of lite jhana. so maybe it's on the continuum but from reading it's not yet samadhi. Maybe a few years of maturing and purification to go for it to get stronger. Yeh you can be relaxed and concentrate watching any object and centralise and merge over it, that's good sitting I assume.
Why would you 'merge' with the objects? It's Buddhism not Brahmanism. Ekaggatā does not mean merge.
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