Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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confusedlayman
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Re: Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

Post by confusedlayman »

BrokenBones wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:49 pm
Slowlearner5 wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:17 pm Wondering if with say experiencing peace or serenity or tranquility and while watching the nice objects which may arise someday, concentration therefore starts to develop with the fascination including sometimes merging with the peaceful object. one could project onto that experience as jhana but with the doubts about that claim therefore there is this new category of lite jhana. so maybe it's on the continuum but from reading it's not yet samadhi. Maybe a few years of maturing and purification to go for it to get stronger. Yeh you can be relaxed and concentrate watching any object and centralise and merge over it, that's good sitting I assume.
Why would you 'merge' with the objects? It's Buddhism not Brahmanism. Ekaggatā does not mean merge.
when u become feeling and feeling become you or only when there is feeling alone and u take feeling as you people say merged because prior to jhana they perceive they are different from feeling
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
BrokenBones
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Re: Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

Post by BrokenBones »

confusedlayman wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 10:51 am
BrokenBones wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:49 pm
Slowlearner5 wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:17 pm Wondering if with say experiencing peace or serenity or tranquility and while watching the nice objects which may arise someday, concentration therefore starts to develop with the fascination including sometimes merging with the peaceful object. one could project onto that experience as jhana but with the doubts about that claim therefore there is this new category of lite jhana. so maybe it's on the continuum but from reading it's not yet samadhi. Maybe a few years of maturing and purification to go for it to get stronger. Yeh you can be relaxed and concentrate watching any object and centralise and merge over it, that's good sitting I assume.
Why would you 'merge' with the objects? It's Buddhism not Brahmanism. Ekaggatā does not mean merge.
when u become feeling and feeling become you or only when there is feeling alone and u take feeling as you people say merged because prior to jhana they perceive they are different from feeling
Is this point where you receive the Ten Commandments?
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confusedlayman
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Re: Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

Post by confusedlayman »

BrokenBones wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 2:27 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 10:51 am
BrokenBones wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:49 pm

Why would you 'merge' with the objects? It's Buddhism not Brahmanism. Ekaggatā does not mean merge.
when u become feeling and feeling become you or only when there is feeling alone and u take feeling as you people say merged because prior to jhana they perceive they are different from feeling
Is this point where you receive the Ten Commandments?
What does that mean? Sorry i no have christian background
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
BrokenBones
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Re: Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

Post by BrokenBones »

confusedlayman wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:49 pm
BrokenBones wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 2:27 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 10:51 am

when u become feeling and feeling become you or only when there is feeling alone and u take feeling as you people say merged because prior to jhana they perceive they are different from feeling
Is this point where you receive the Ten Commandments?
What does that mean? Sorry i no have christian background
Come now, you know enough. Why are you talking about merging and 'becoming feeling'? Such talk and 'God' the Great Almighty, The Great Oneness or the Singularity can't be far behind... we could call it... The Great Perception.
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confusedlayman
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Re: Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

Post by confusedlayman »

BrokenBones wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 11:43 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:49 pm
BrokenBones wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 2:27 pm

Is this point where you receive the Ten Commandments?
What does that mean? Sorry i no have christian background
Come now, you know enough. Why are you talking about merging and 'becoming feeling'? Such talk and 'God' the Great Almighty, The Great Oneness or the Singularity can't be far behind... we could call it... The Great Perception.
Becauaae I merge with feeling or I became feeling is what common folk address...
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
BrokenBones
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Re: Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

Post by BrokenBones »

confusedlayman wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 6:40 am
BrokenBones wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 11:43 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:49 pm

What does that mean? Sorry i no have christian background
Come now, you know enough. Why are you talking about merging and 'becoming feeling'? Such talk and 'God' the Great Almighty, The Great Oneness or the Singularity can't be far behind... we could call it... The Great Perception.
Becauaae I merge with feeling or I became feeling is what common folk address...
You're not fooling anyone you know 😉
coffeendonuts
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Re: Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

Post by coffeendonuts »

BrokenBones wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 11:43 am
confusedlayman wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 6:40 am
BrokenBones wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 11:43 pm

Come now, you know enough. Why are you talking about merging and 'becoming feeling'? Such talk and 'God' the Great Almighty, The Great Oneness or the Singularity can't be far behind... we could call it... The Great Perception.
Becauaae I merge with feeling or I became feeling is what common folk address...
You're not fooling anyone you know 😉
Logically, if you deny that it is possible to dissolve the subject-object distinction, you must assert a permanent subject.
BrokenBones
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Re: Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

Post by BrokenBones »

coffeendonuts wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 11:53 am
BrokenBones wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 11:43 am
confusedlayman wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 6:40 am

Becauaae I merge with feeling or I became feeling is what common folk address...
You're not fooling anyone you know 😉
Logically, if you deny that it is possible to dissolve the subject-object distinction, you must assert a permanent subject.
The 'logic' escapes me... and I'm not denying the possibility of 'merging'... only that it's a fools errand. But if I did deny it, how on earth does that assert a permanent 'subject'?
coffeendonuts
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Re: Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

Post by coffeendonuts »

BrokenBones wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 1:22 pm
coffeendonuts wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 11:53 am
BrokenBones wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 11:43 am

You're not fooling anyone you know 😉
Logically, if you deny that it is possible to dissolve the subject-object distinction, you must assert a permanent subject.
The 'logic' escapes me... and I'm not denying the possibility of 'merging'... only that it's a fools errand. But if I did deny it, how on earth does that assert a permanent 'subject'?
If you aren't merging, you are observing.
EmptyShadow
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Re: Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

Post by EmptyShadow »

Here's interesting intrview with Leigh Brasington, who is a well known teacher of 'light' jhanas. I think it's relevant to the topic.
One thing I’ve discovered along the way is that the level of concentration that I get to on a ten-day course or a month-long course or that my students get to is probably not the level the Buddha and his disciples were getting to, because they were doing this practice full-time.

On long retreats, particularly during the two retreats I’ve done with Pa Auk Sayadaw, I was able to get deeply concentrated and then work with the same jhāna states I initially learned from Ayya Khema. The experiences I had during those retreats more closely matched the way they’re described in the suttas.

So then the question becomes, “If what I’m teaching is at a lesser level of concentration than what the Buddha was teaching, is that of any value, or should I just be teaching what he taught?” I’ve decided that, given that I’m working with lay students who come on retreat for ten or twenty days, it’s much more important to teach something that people can actually learn and use than to hold out for something that most people don’t have the time to properly develop. If someone wants to take their concentration to the level the Buddha was teaching, I can help with that as well. Basically, they just have to stay much longer in access concentration before moving into the first jhāna.
https://www.buddhistinquiry.org/article ... he-seeing/
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

Post by Ceisiwr »

EmptyShadow wrote: Sat Jan 23, 2021 7:51 pm Here's interesting intrview with Leigh Brasington, who is a well known teacher of 'light' jhanas. I think it's relevant to the topic.
One thing I’ve discovered along the way is that the level of concentration that I get to on a ten-day course or a month-long course or that my students get to is probably not the level the Buddha and his disciples were getting to, because they were doing this practice full-time.

On long retreats, particularly during the two retreats I’ve done with Pa Auk Sayadaw, I was able to get deeply concentrated and then work with the same jhāna states I initially learned from Ayya Khema. The experiences I had during those retreats more closely matched the way they’re described in the suttas.

So then the question becomes, “If what I’m teaching is at a lesser level of concentration than what the Buddha was teaching, is that of any value, or should I just be teaching what he taught?” I’ve decided that, given that I’m working with lay students who come on retreat for ten or twenty days, it’s much more important to teach something that people can actually learn and use than to hold out for something that most people don’t have the time to properly develop. If someone wants to take their concentration to the level the Buddha was teaching, I can help with that as well. Basically, they just have to stay much longer in access concentration before moving into the first jhāna.
https://www.buddhistinquiry.org/article ... he-seeing/
So he admits here that Jhana lite isn’t what the Buddha taught. That’s refreshing, and interesting.
Paññaṃ nappamajjeyya, saccamanurakkheyya, cāgamanubrūheyya, santimeva so sikkheyyā’ti
“One should not neglect wisdom, should preserve truth, cultivate relinquishment and train for peace.”

Dhātuvibhaṅga Sutta
Inedible
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Re: Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

Post by Inedible »

It seems to me that you have two choices. You can practice or you can give up.
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