Is it possible to practice the classical Samatha objects during walking meditation?

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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SilaSamadhi8
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Is it possible to practice the classical Samatha objects during walking meditation?

Post by SilaSamadhi8 »

Hi Dhamma friends,

In the Anapanasati Sutta the Buddha starts by saying to sit cross-legged on the root of a tree, etc.
In the famous Sattipathana Sutta right before starting with Anapanasati he says to sit cross legged as well but later in the same section, Kaya, a bhikkhu discerns walking as "I am walking" and standing as "I am standing" but that's related to the posture and not to any particular object like Anapana right ?
I looked for the Keywords "Walking" and "Walking meditation" in the Visuddhimagga but Buddhaghosa only refers to them as postures and not any technique in particular. So I assume the 40 Kammatthana can be practiced during walking just as sitting? And automatically the same would be valid for standing and lying down?



With Metta.
coconut
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Re: Is it possible to practice the classical Samatha objects during walking meditation?

Post by coconut »

My personal opinion is that sati-sampajanna can be practiced 24/7 in any position.

Entering first jhana requires sitting in seclusion.

After one has entered first jhana, they have attained an immeasurable mind, and can now walk around with an immeasurable mind. The immeasurable mind makes sense restraint extremely easy as craving is temporarily subdued.

The immeasurable mind needs to be refreshed as it fades out. The Buddha refreshes his immeasurable mind after the daily meal, even though he does not have craving outside of the immeasurable mind, it just means he can attain it "at will" and instantly. Whereas anyone below non-return cannot get it at will, and must fight off more hindrances.
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gavesako
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Re: Is it possible to practice the classical Samatha objects during walking meditation?

Post by gavesako »

Here is a teaching by Luang Por Baen, a recently deceased teacher from the Thai forest tradition:


Do walking meditation. Walk a lot.
Do walking meditation. Walk a lot.
No matter how exhausted you are, walk until you're free from that exhaustion.
If you're still exhausted, aching and tired with weak and wobbly legs,
There! Walk until you're past that point.
It's defilements (kilesas*) that drag you down. They pull. They oppress. They weigh on you heavily.
Defilements and nothing else.
Once the mind's peaceful there's no heaviness, no tiredness.
There's only lightness, only ease.
The body's light. The mind's at ease.
In a moment of being at peace there's radiance, clarity and ease.
So that's why I say, "Do walking meditation. Walk a lot."
Walk, so that you see the benefits of doing it, so you see the results.
When you're about to quit, don't yet quit.
If you haven't yet seen the results, haven't yet tasted the benefits of walking,
Don't quit walking.
Otherwise, quitting at that time will become an ingrained habit.
Resist and keep going.
Resist. Resist. Resist.
If you're sleepy, resist. If you're tired and sore, resist.
Walk, grabbing onto whatever you can, holding onto this, holding onto that.
Walk some. Stand some.
Walk until you absolutely can't go on anymore.
Take a good look at that!
Effort, for goodness sake!
That's effort. Do you see what I'm talking about?
That's patient endurance.
Effort, patience and endurance. Do you hear what I'm saying?
Walking meditation until an ache appears and then quitting;
Sitting meditation until an ache appears and then stopping;
Is that effort? Is that what we call patient endurance?
It's neither.
In the end you don't want to sit or walk.
Fed up with it, not seeing any benefits, just experiencing pain and discomfort, each time you sit, you never see peace. Whenever you walk, you only experience pain, soreness and exhaustion.
You don't see peace.
In the end you just don't want to do it anymore, that's all.
And then what happens when you don't do it?
Hanging out and socializing...
When you don't see for yourself the benefits of meditation, of retreating to be by yourself, of living in peace and solitude, of being alone in private, then you congregate and chat.
So do walking meditation. Walk a lot.
Do walking meditation. Walk a lot.
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

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SilaSamadhi8
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Re: Is it possible to practice the classical Samatha objects during walking meditation?

Post by SilaSamadhi8 »

coconut wrote: Sun Jan 24, 2021 2:16 pm My personal opinion is that sati-sampajanna can be practiced 24/7 in any position.

Entering first jhana requires sitting in seclusion.

After one has entered first jhana, they have attained an immeasurable mind, and can now walk around with an immeasurable mind. The immeasurable mind makes sense restraint extremely easy as craving is temporarily subdued.

The immeasurable mind needs to be refreshed as it fades out. The Buddha refreshes his immeasurable mind after the daily meal, even though he does not have craving outside of the immeasurable mind, it just means he can attain it "at will" and instantly. Whereas anyone below non-return cannot get it at will, and must fight off more hindrances.

Thanks for the answer coconut :namaste:
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Re: Is it possible to practice the classical Samatha objects during walking meditation?

Post by coconut »

SilaSamadhi8 wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 12:08 am
coconut wrote: Sun Jan 24, 2021 2:16 pm My personal opinion is that sati-sampajanna can be practiced 24/7 in any position.

Entering first jhana requires sitting in seclusion.

After one has entered first jhana, they have attained an immeasurable mind, and can now walk around with an immeasurable mind. The immeasurable mind makes sense restraint extremely easy as craving is temporarily subdued.

The immeasurable mind needs to be refreshed as it fades out. The Buddha refreshes his immeasurable mind after the daily meal, even though he does not have craving outside of the immeasurable mind, it just means he can attain it "at will" and instantly. Whereas anyone below non-return cannot get it at will, and must fight off more hindrances.

Thanks for the answer coconut :namaste:
NP, but I made a typo, it's measureless mind, not immeasurable mind, the word is appamāṇacetaso
Here, brahmin, having seen a form with the eye, someone is not intent upon a pleasing form and not repelled by a displeasing form. He dwells having set up mindfulness of the body, with a measureless mind, and he understands as it really is that liberation of mind, liberation by wisdom, wherein those evil unwholesome states cease without remainder. Having heard a sound with the ear … Having cognized a mental phenomenon with the mind, someone is not intent upon a pleasing mental phenomenon and not repelled by a displeasing mental phenomenon. He dwells having set up mindfulness of the body … cease without remainder. It is in such a way, brahmin, that one is ‘with sense doors guarded.’”
“Here, brahmin, when I am dwelling in dependence on a village or town, in the morning I dress, take my bowl and robe, and enter that village or town for alms. After the meal, when I have returned from the alms round, I enter a grove. I collect some grass or leaves that I find there into a pile and then sit down. Having folded my legs crosswise and straightened my body, I establish mindfulness in front of me. Then I dwell pervading one quarter with a mind imbued with loving-kindness, likewise the second quarter, the third quarter, and the fourth quarter. Thus above, below, across, and everywhere, and to all as to myself, I dwell pervading the entire world with a mind imbued with loving-kindness, vast, exalted, measureless, without enmity, without ill will. I dwell pervading one quarter with a mind imbued with compassion … with a mind imbued with altruistic joy … with a mind imbued with equanimity, likewise the second quarter, the third quarter, and the fourth quarter. Thus above, below, across, and everywhere, and to all as to myself, I dwell pervading the entire world with a mind imbued with equanimity, vast, exalted, measureless, without enmity, without ill will.

“Then, brahmin, when I am in such a state, if I walk back and forth, on that occasion my walking back and forth is divine. If I am standing, on that occasion my standing is divine. If I am sitting, on that occasion my sitting is divine. If I lie down, on that occasion this is my divine high and luxurious bed. This is that divine high and luxurious bed that at present I can gain at will, without trouble or difficulty.”
edit: i guess it's also translated as immeasurable
On seeing a form with the eye, he does not lust after it if it is pleasing; he does not dislike it if it is unpleasing. He abides with mindfulness of the body established, with an immeasurable mind, and he understands as it actually is the deliverance of mind and deliverance by wisdom wherein those evil unwholesome states cease without remainder. Having thus abandoned favouring and opposing, whatever feeling he feels, whether pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant, he does not delight in that feeling, welcome it, or remain holding to it. As he does not do so, delight in feelings ceases in him. With the cessation of his delight comes cessation of clinging; with the cessation of clinging, cessation of being; with the cessation of being, cessation of birth; with the cessation of birth, ageing and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair cease. Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering.
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DooDoot
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Re: Is it possible to practice the classical Samatha objects during walking meditation?

Post by DooDoot »

Anapanasati can be practised when walking.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
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SilaSamadhi8
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Re: Is it possible to practice the classical Samatha objects during walking meditation?

Post by SilaSamadhi8 »

DooDoot wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 1:55 am Anapanasati can be practised when walking.

Even to the extent of Jhana ?
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Re: Is it possible to practice the classical Samatha objects during walking meditation?

Post by DooDoot »

SilaSamadhi8 wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 5:02 pm Even to the extent of Jhana ?
Close to jhana but probably not to jhana.

Also, anapanasati does not include jhana because there is no experience of breathing in jhana.

Also, the stream-enterer has not attained jhana but has destroyed much suffering and developed much samatha & vipassana (SN 13.1).
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
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SilaSamadhi8
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Re: Is it possible to practice the classical Samatha objects during walking meditation?

Post by SilaSamadhi8 »

DooDoot wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 12:13 am
SilaSamadhi8 wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 5:02 pm Even to the extent of Jhana ?
Close to jhana but probably not to jhana.

Also, anapanasati does not include jhana because there is no experience of breathing in jhana.

Also, the stream-enterer has not attained jhana but has destroyed much suffering and developed much samatha & vipassana (SN 13.1).

I See.
coconut wrote: Sun Jan 24, 2021 2:16 pm My personal opinion is that sati-sampajanna can be practiced 24/7 in any position.

Entering first jhana requires sitting in seclusion.

After one has entered first jhana, they have attained an immeasurable mind, and can now walk around with an immeasurable mind. The immeasurable mind makes sense restraint extremely easy as craving is temporarily subdued.

The immeasurable mind needs to be refreshed as it fades out. The Buddha refreshes his immeasurable mind after the daily meal, even though he does not have craving outside of the immeasurable mind, it just means he can attain it "at will" and instantly. Whereas anyone below non-return cannot get it at will, and must fight off more hindrances.

Also, I forgot to ask something: What's the difference between "Sati" and "Sati-Sampajanna" ?
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Re: Is it possible to practice the classical Samatha objects during walking meditation?

Post by DooDoot »

SilaSamadhi8 wrote: Thu Jan 28, 2021 12:08 pm Also, I forgot to ask something: What's the difference between "Sati" and "Sati-Sampajanna" ?
Coconut will say there is a difference and will say sati and sampajana can operate separately, without each other, but i disagree.

Sati means to keep in mind or remember.

Sampajanna means situational wisdom, i.e., the appropriate wisdom for a situation or circumstance.

What sati keeps in mind is sampajanna.

For example, if you practise dhamma well, sati is always remembering to keep the mind free from craving & attachment because sampajanna is the wisdom about how craving & attachment cause suffering.

Therefore, sati always works together with sampajana.

In other words, when the word 'sati' is found alone, it generally means 'sati-sampajanna'; thus, imo, there is no difference.

I agree with this video and this video agrees with me.

There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
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Re: Is it possible to practice the classical Samatha objects during walking meditation?

Post by coconut »

SilaSamadhi8 wrote: Thu Jan 28, 2021 12:08 pm

Also, I forgot to ask something: What's the difference between "Sati" and "Sati-Sampajanna" ?
Sati means to remember the dhamma concepts, such as the 5 aggregates, 5 hindrances, wholesome/unwholesome (right view) etc.

Sampajanna means clear comprehension, knowing when things arise, persist and pass.

Sati-sampajanna means knowing the 5 aggregates, 5 hindrances, etc.., as they are arising, persisting, and ceasing.
“This is Nanda’s mindfulness and clear comprehension: Nanda knows feelings as they arise, as they remain present, as they disappear; he knows perceptions as they arise, as they remain present, as they disappear; he knows thoughts as they arise, as they remain present, as they disappear. That is Nanda’s mindfulness and clear comprehension.
https://suttacentral.net/an8.9/en/bodhi

Yoniso Manasikara means seeing "when this arises, that arises, when this ceases, that ceases", so you know what leads to what as it arises in your mind, therefore allowing you to discern it and calm it. If you don't have Yoniso Manasikara then you cannot have vipassana-samatha.

The purpose of Yoniso Manasikara and Sati-Sampajanna is to see and discern Dependent Origination and the four noble truths happening right here and now, and to calm it, thus one attains experiential confidence in the dhamma and the fruit of stream entry.
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