Posture

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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pitithefool
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Posture

Post by pitithefool »

I started off using standard zafu cushions when learning, but I developed quite a liking for seiza benches and it's now my primary means for sitting.
However, I am starting to go back to using a small cushion and sitting half lotus.

How important do you think posture is when meditating? How erect should the spine be, and how should the muscles be developed so that one can sit for a long period of time?

One question of some import is how does this play into sitting at the base of a tree? I tend to find trees that I can rest my back against, but is this advisable?

Thank you :anjali:
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one_awakening
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Re: Posture

Post by one_awakening »

Just find a posture where you're comfortable but not so comfortable that you fall asleep.
“You only lose what you cling to”
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pitithefool
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Re: Posture

Post by pitithefool »

one_awakening wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 1:59 am Just find a posture where you're comfortable but not so comfortable that you fall asleep.
As Shakespeare would say, "aye, there's the rub" lolol :tongue:
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DooDoot
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Re: Posture

Post by DooDoot »

pitithefool wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 12:44 am How erect should the spine be
As erect as naturally possible
pitithefool wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 12:44 am and how should the muscles be developed so that one can sit for a long period of time?
The body will sit as long as samadhi is maintained. Natural long breathing keeps the body upright.
pitithefool wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 12:44 amOne question of some import is how does this play into sitting at the base of a tree?
Its good for avoiding the heat of the sun.
pitithefool wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 12:44 amI tend to find trees that I can rest my back against, but is this advisable?
Definitely not. The back should never rest against something.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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pitithefool
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Re: Posture

Post by pitithefool »

DooDoot wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 11:09 am As erect as naturally possible
Easy on a seiza bench. However getting back into the groove of sitting half-lotus, the support needed from the erector spinae and others is a little distracting, but the effect on concentration seems to be well worth it.


Its good for avoiding the heat of the sun.
Definitely don't want sunburns

Definitely not. The back should never rest against something.
What bout the lying down posture while meditating? I've had some pretty good experiences while lying down but it is extremely prone to drowsiness. I'm assuming that's also the reason we don't want to rest the back on anything as well?
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DooDoot
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Re: Posture

Post by DooDoot »

pitithefool wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 9:34 pm the effect on concentration seems to be well worth it.
Why? How? What evidence?
pitithefool wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 9:34 pmWhat bout the lying down posture while meditating?
The suttas appear to say the above is for prior to sleep and the ending of life.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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pitithefool
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Re: Posture

Post by pitithefool »

DooDoot wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 10:55 pm
Why? How? What evidence?
It's more stable, and using the back muscles like that keeps you awake. I notice better alertness when I try to keep better posture.
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pitithefool
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Re: Posture

Post by pitithefool »

pitithefool wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 12:22 am
It's more stable, and using the back muscles like that keeps you awake. I notice better alertness when I try to keep better posture.
BUT, meditating by lying back is very relaxing. Maybe too much lol
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sunnat
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Post by sunnat »

Just a couple of pointers.

There are no mystical qualities attached to any posture. A posture is just an ordinary position the body may be in. Intermediate postures like crouching, running, standing on the head are also postures, albeit less conducive to long term focused attention.


Being upright means not deviating, not wavering, maintaining an inclination towards the Dhamma and not: 'having a straight spine'. Old people with crooked backs and young people with scoliosis may also become enlightened.


Leaning up against something is fine. It may make it easier to drift in and out of sleep so it demands more focused concentration rather than trying to relax and in turn helps to let go of the inclination "to sleep rather than be aware of unpleasant feelings or sensations".
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Re: Posture

Post by Inedible »

A good meditation posture is like the dress for success thing. When you sit in a really good meditation posture that by itself makes you feel more successful.
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pitithefool
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Re:

Post by pitithefool »

sunnat wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 1:25 am Just a couple of pointers.

There are no mystical qualities attached to any posture. A posture is just an ordinary position the body may be in. Intermediate postures like crouching, running, standing on the head are also postures, albeit less conducive to long term focused attention.


Being upright means not deviating, not wavering, maintaining an inclination towards the Dhamma and not: 'having a straight spine'. Old people with crooked backs and young people with scoliosis may also become enlightened.


Leaning up against something is fine. It may make it easier to drift in and out of sleep so it demands more focused concentration rather than trying to relax and in turn helps to let go of the inclination "to sleep rather than be aware of unpleasant feelings or sensations".
Thank you for the reply!

I'm not seeing any mystical qualities as much as subtle psychological effects. I like meditating erect, almost as if I'm being held up by a string from the crown of my head. It seems to imbue a subtle amount of confidence or energy, in the same way that "walking tall" does.

Thoughts on that?
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sunnat
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Post by sunnat »

Only constantly recurring thought on that and questions along that line is that all phenomena are anicca and to be treated equally. No attachment or aversion one way or the other. Whatever it is, it will pass, change and some other phenomenon arise, again to be noted as it also changes.
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DooDoot
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Re: Posture

Post by DooDoot »

pitithefool wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 12:22 am It's more stable, and using the back muscles like that keeps you awake. I notice better alertness when I try to keep better posture.
Sounds like superstition, including about the "back muscles". I suppose if you count on falling asleep, you need all the help you can get. This is the beauty of full-lotus; in that macho guys can fall asleep while they pretend they are meditating. My advice is unrelated to falling asleep but always being awake.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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pitithefool
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Re: Posture

Post by pitithefool »

DooDoot wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 3:27 am
Sounds like superstition, including about the "back muscles". I suppose if you count on falling asleep, you need all the help you can get. This is the beauty of full-lotus; in that macho guys can fall asleep while they pretend they are meditating. My advice is unrelated to falling asleep but always being awake.
Here, check out this scientific study https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... l_and_Mood
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DooDoot
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Re: Posture

Post by DooDoot »

pitithefool wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 4:55 am Here, check out this scientific study
It is unlikely the above supports your Hindu ideas because it does not appear to be about "lotus" posture:
Background: Body posture reflects emotional states, and this study investigates the effect of posture sitting in a slouched or upright position on recall of either negative (hopeless, helpless, powerless, or defeated) memories or positive (empowered or optimistic) memories. Methods: 216 college students sat in either a slouched or an erect position while recalling negative memories and then in a second step, recalling positive memories. They then sat in the opposite body position while recalling negative and then positive memories. Results: 86% of the students reported that it was easier to recall/access negative memories in the collapsed position than in the erect position (p < 0.01) and 87% of the students reported that it was easier to recall/access positive images in the erect position than in the collapsed position (p < 0.01). Participants who reported being most depressed over the previous two years reported significantly more recall of negative memories in both the slouched position (p = 0.01) and erect position (p < 0.05). For those who were most depressed, there were no differences in recalling positive memories. Conclusion: We recommend that therapists teach clients posture awareness and sit more upright in the office and at home as a strategy to increase positive affect and decrease depression
I used to meditate for at least 8 hours per day, including :

1. sitting on the floor in Thai swastika posture (where both legs are folded in the same direction; thus one ankle in the groin and one ankle to the side) for over 2 hours.

2. standing meditation in one spot for 90 minutes

3. sitting on a backless stool for many hours

lotus posture with spine not erect will not be better than the above

regardless, perfect lotus posture won't allow one without wisdom to enter the Path :smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
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