Proposed solution to the Jhana Wars debate

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pitithefool
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Proposed solution to the Jhana Wars debate

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Proposed solution to the Jhana Wars:

At this point I’ve heard very compelling arguments for both sides of this debate. Both the absorbed-style and the non-absorbed jhanas seem to have both experiential backing as well as canonical discourse supporting their efficacy. After hearing the arguments I have to conclude that they are both correct.

1. What is a jhana really?

According to the suttas, jhana is any concentration that is endowed with these five factors: vitakka-vicara, piti-sukha, and ekaggata.
Whether or not we are using the absorbed or non-absorbed model, I think the most relevant term here for either side is the term ekaggata, which literally means “the mind gone to one”. From what I’ve gathered, this simply means that the mind is completely attentive to unified with its object and with nothing else.

This is an important point here, and I will be revisiting this topic later.

2. Hearing sound while in jhana.

In the Sutta Pitaka, the evidence for not hearing sound while rapt in concentration is fairly inconclusive and weak at best. We do, however, see quite a bit of commentary supporting this. The idea that sound cannot be heard appears to come from two places, though this list is not meant to be exhaustive:

First, from the Abhidhamma view that mental events can only occur one at a time, therefore if one is attentive to only one object, they must also be inattentive to all others. This view is not supported in the sutta pitaka and there is evidence to the contrary in which the sutta pitaka does appear to allow for parallel processing and for multiple events to be occurring simultaneously.

Second, from the techniques found in the Visuddhimagga. This is important because it deals with something critical to jhana practice or any type of meditation at all and it’s the definition of the object. I’ll elaborate a little more later, but the techniques listed in the Visuddhimagga lend themselves to one-pointedness wherein sensory inplut must be rejected as not part of the meditation, whereas the sutta pitaka contains a fairly large number of passages that contain much more inclusive and expansive objects. Which leads me to my next point.

3. Definition of the object, its place on the NEFP, and its effects on the experience.

In the Visuddhimagga, the technique for Anapanasati is treated similarly to the technique for kasina. Kasina objects appear to be quite well suited to concentration in which one may not hear sound because by definition, they do not include the senses.

However, in the Anapanasati sutta as well as others, we see a much more inclusive list of what is considered the object, including contemplation of impermanence, directing the attention towards the whole body, feeling rapture, feeling pleasure, calming the bodily fabrications, calming the mental fabrications, etc. Further, a fairly standard formula found in the canon describes unambiguously rapture, pleasure and awareness being spread across the entire body, head to toe. This formula is not always used though, and it seems to be closely linked with body contemplation.

How are these be reconciled?

I propose that we first think about what our object is. When we sit down, we must have a clear definition of what is and is not the object in order for our meditation to be a success. If we follow a more inclusive approach, we can include sensory information into the practice as part of the object, which fulfils contemplation of the six-sense media included in the standard Satipatthana formula under contemplation of Dhamma. Further, we can include Dependent origination into our meditation, as again the falls under right mindfulness. We can include the entire body as our object, following the advice of the Kayagatasati sutta, or we can include contemplation of feelings, or contemplation of the mind. These all fulfil right mindfulness and can thus be included as wholesome and acceptable. It can also be discerned that if one limits oneself to the Dhamma, or to the 16 steps of anapanasati, then rapture, pleasure, directed though, evaluation arise and grow strong, and the mind does not venture outside of the limits of the defined object. This fulfils all five factors of the first jhana. Further, if it is supported by right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, and right mindfulness, then it is noble right concentration.

If we look at it this way, then it’s clear that whether or not one hears sound in the meditation depends completely on how the object is defined. If the object is very limited, and way say to ourselves “sensory information, contact and attention to sense objects are not part of this meditation”, then it would follow that if one gains ekaggata with such a definition, then sensory information will necessarily not be included. If, on that occasion, rapture, pleasure, directed thought and evaluation arise and one is successful limiting the mind to its object, then it fulfils all five factors of the first jhana. Further, if it is supported by right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, and right mindfulness, then it is noble right concentration.

It would then follow that either of these methods would follow a similar trajectory: The awareness becomes saturated with piti-sukha and the work of vitakka-vicara can be dropped upon entry into the second jhana. Piti is dropped upon entry into the third, and the in-and-out breathing grows still with the abandonment of pleasure and pain in the fourth jhana. By then, the mind is perfectly equanimous, bright, malleable, pliant, and wieldy and can be directed anywhere we steer it.

To summarize:

1. As long as a concentration fulfils the five factors of jhana, it is a jhana.
2. If this concentration is supported by the other factors of the NEFP, it is right concentration.
3. Contact at the senses or lack thereof is not a factor of jhana.
4. Experience of contact at the senses depends on how restrictive or inclusive the object/subject of meditation is defined to be.
5. Contact at the senses can be the basis of right mindfulness and thus can be included with the subject or object.
6. You're both right! Now get over it!!!
Last edited by pitithefool on Sun Apr 04, 2021 4:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Proposed solution to the Jhana Wars debate

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pitithefool wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 4:05 pm
Both the absorbed-style and the sutta-style jhanas
Both sides take theirs to be sutta based. It would be better to say absorbed vs non-absorbed.
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Re: Proposed solution to the Jhana Wars debate

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Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 4:16 pm
pitithefool wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 4:05 pm
Both the absorbed-style and the sutta-style jhanas
Both sides take theirs to be sutta based. It would be better to say absorbed vs non-absorbed.
There, I fixed it
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Re: Proposed solution to the Jhana Wars debate

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pitithefool wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 4:20 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 4:16 pm
pitithefool wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 4:05 pm
Both the absorbed-style and the sutta-style jhanas
Both sides take theirs to be sutta based. It would be better to say absorbed vs non-absorbed.
There, I fixed it
:thumbsup:
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Proposed solution to the Jhana Wars debate

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Even though a disciple of the noble ones has clearly seen as it actually is with right discernment that sensuality is of much stress, much despair & greater drawbacks, still — if he has not attained a rapture & pleasure apart from sensuality, apart from unskillful mental qualities, or something more peaceful than that — he can be tempted by sensuality. But when he has clearly seen as it actually is with right discernment that sensuality is of much stress, much despair & greater drawbacks, and he has attained a rapture & pleasure apart from sensuality, apart from unskillful mental qualities, or something more peaceful than that, he cannot be tempted by sensuality.

MN 14
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Re: Proposed solution to the Jhana Wars debate

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Monks, there are these four types of individuals to be found existing in the world. Which four?

There is the case where an individual, withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He savors that, longs for that, finds satisfaction through that. Staying there — fixed on that, dwelling there often, not falling away from that — then when he dies he reappears in conjunction with the devas of Brahma's retinue. The devas of Brahma's retinue, monks, have a life-span of an eon. A run-of-the-mill person having stayed there, having used up all the life-span of those devas, goes to hell, to the animal womb, to the state of the hungry shades :P . But a disciple of the Blessed One, having stayed there, having used up all the life-span of those devas, is unbound right in that state of being. This, monks, is the difference, this the distinction, this the distinguishing factor, between an educated disciple of the noble ones and an uneducated run-of-the-mill person, when there is a destination, a reappearing.

AN 4.123
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Re: Proposed solution to the Jhana Wars debate

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pitithefool wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 4:20 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 4:16 pm
pitithefool wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 4:05 pm
Both the absorbed-style and the sutta-style jhanas
Both sides take theirs to be sutta based. It would be better to say absorbed vs non-absorbed.
There, I fixed it
No... you had it right first time :tongue:
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Re: Proposed solution to the Jhana Wars debate

Post by BrokenBones »

DooDoot wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 10:12 pm
Monks, there are these four types of individuals to be found existing in the world. Which four?

There is the case where an individual, withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He savors that, longs for that, finds satisfaction through that. Staying there — fixed on that, dwelling there often, not falling away from that — then when he dies he reappears in conjunction with the devas of Brahma's retinue. The devas of Brahma's retinue, monks, have a life-span of an eon. A run-of-the-mill person having stayed there, having used up all the life-span of those devas, goes to hell, to the animal womb, to the state of the hungry shades :P . But a disciple of the Blessed One, having stayed there, having used up all the life-span of those devas, is unbound right in that state of being. This, monks, is the difference, this the distinction, this the distinguishing factor, between an educated disciple of the noble ones and an uneducated run-of-the-mill person, when there is a destination, a reappearing.

AN 4.123
An excellent summation of sutta jhana vs absorbed jhana.
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Re: Proposed solution to the Jhana Wars debate

Post by DooDoot »

BrokenBones wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 2:47 am An excellent summation of sutta jhana vs absorbed jhana.
Definitely not. Your post is an excellent summation of sutta mannati. Sutta jhana is ekaggata. Clinging to it is something else.
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Re: Proposed solution to the Jhana Wars debate

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DooDoot wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 6:46 am
BrokenBones wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 2:47 am An excellent summation of sutta jhana vs absorbed jhana.
Definitely not. Your post is an excellent summation of sutta mannati. Sutta jhana is ekaggata. Clinging to it is something else.
I think that 'staying there', 'clinging to' and 'fixed on that' sum up absorption quite well. It's a wonderful Sutta in outlining the differences.
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Re: Proposed solution to the Jhana Wars debate

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pitithefool wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 4:05 pm
In the Sutta Pitaka, the evidence for not hearing sound while rapt in concentration is fairly inconclusive and weak at best. We do, however, see quite a bit of commentary supporting this. The idea that sound cannot be heard appears to come from two places, though this list is not meant to be exhaustive:

First, from the Abhidhamma view that mental events can only occur one at a time, therefore if one is attentive to only one object, they must also be inattentive to all others. This view is not supported in the sutta pitaka and there is evidence to the contrary in which the sutta pitaka does appear to allow for parallel processing and for multiple events to be occurring simultaneously.
Without relying upon either the Abhidhamma of the Visuddhimagga we have suttas which state the following:

1. Whilst in any jhānā there is seclusion from the external kāmā.

2. Whilst in any jhānā there is no saññāmanasikārā.

3. Whilst in the 1st jhāna sound is a thorn, like pain is to happiness.

Analytically it follows from point 1 that when in any jhānā there is no experience of external kāmā. It also follows analytically from point 2 that whilst in any jhānā there is 1 conception/perception only, not many. Taken together the conclusion is that the 5 senses are not experienced in any jhānā. Regarding point 3 it states that just like how pain is a thorn to happiness, sound is a thorn to the 1st jhāna. If we look to the Mahānidāna sutta we find that a person can only experience 1 type of vedanā at a time:
“Ānanda, on the occasion when one experiences a pleasant feeling one does not, on that same occasion, experience a painful feeling or a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling; on that occasion one experiences only a pleasant feeling. On the occasion when one experiences a painful feeling one does not, on that same occasion, experience a pleasant feeling or a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling; on that occasion one experiences only a painful feeling. On the occasion when one experiences a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling one does not, on that same occasion, experience a pleasant feeling or a painful feeling; on that occasion one experiences only a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling."
With this in mind we can now understand how pain is a thorn to happiness. When in pain, happiness is not present. Since the comparison in the sutta is given between sound and the 1st jhāna with pain and happiness, we can conclude that when someone hears a sound they are no longer in the 1st jhāna.
In the Visuddhimagga, the technique for Anapanasati is treated similarly to the technique for kasina. Kasina objects appear to be quite well suited to concentration in which one may not hear sound because by definition, they do not include the senses.

However, in the Anapanasati sutta as well as others, we see a much more inclusive list of what is considered the object, including contemplation of impermanence, directing the attention towards the whole body, feeling rapture, feeling pleasure, calming the bodily fabrications, calming the mental fabrications, etc. Further, a fairly standard formula found in the canon describes unambiguously rapture, pleasure and awareness being spread across the entire body, head to toe. This formula is not always used though, and it seems to be closely linked with body contemplation
Although I do not think this is explicitly stated, the reason why the Vimuttimagga and Visuddhimagga treat ānāpānasati as a kasiṇa exercise is due to it's ability to lead to all 4 Jhānā. Since the Vimuttimagga and Visuddhimagga both recognise the Jhānā as being divorced from the 5 senses (although the Vimuttimagga can be slightly confused at times here), and since kasiṇa is of one all encompassing conception/perception they make the connection between mindfulness of breathing and the air kasiṇa. In other words, the reason why mindfulness of breathing can lead to the Jhānā is because it develops a singular and all encompassing conception/perception of "air". Regarding the ānāpānasati sutta in general the final tetrad is seen as either being something which is contemplated after emerging from access concentration or the jhānā, both in terms of the commentaries and based on the suttas. Regarding "sabbakāyapaṭisaṁvedī" the Vimuttimagga, following the Paṭisambhidāmagga, takes this to be awareness of the breath and mental factors whilst in access concentration. The Visuddhimagga takes it to mean awareness of the whole breath. Neither take this to occur whilst in Jhāna, for obvious reasons. Regarding the other tetrads, since the injunction is "to train" and since the Vimuttimagga and Visuddhimagga take this to be the training in Higher Virtue, Higher Mind and Higher Wisdom, they take each "he trains" to be an exercise in Jhāna. For example, regarding the stage of "experiencing rapture" the meditator will enter into the 1st or 2nd Jhāna, leave and then contemplate the rapture from that attainment. An alternative view is that "experiencing rapture" and so on refers to the arising of the Jhāna factors in access concentration. This can be based on a sutta only approach or a commentarial one, although not found specifically in the commentarial texts (that I can recall). In relation to kāya, it makes more sense to read this as referring to the nāmakāya or the 5 aggregates rather than the physical body.
I propose that we first think about what our object is. When we sit down, we must have a clear definition of what is and is not the object in order for our meditation to be a success. If we follow a more inclusive approach, we can include sensory information into the practice as part of the object, which fulfils contemplation of the six-sense media included in the standard Satipatthana formula under contemplation of Dhamma. Further, we can include Dependent origination into our meditation, as again the falls under right mindfulness. We can include the entire body as our object, following the advice of the Kayagatasati sutta, or we can include contemplation of feelings, or contemplation of the mind. These all fulfil right mindfulness and can thus be included as wholesome and acceptable. It can also be discerned that if one limits oneself to the Dhamma, or to the 16 steps of anapanasati, then rapture, pleasure, directed though, evaluation arise and grow strong, and the mind does not venture outside of the limits of the defined object. This fulfils all five factors of the first jhana. Further, if it is supported by right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, and right mindfulness, then it is noble right concentration.
The contemplation of paṭiccasamuppāda, 6 sense spheres and so on can only be down with at least access concentration. For example, a sotāpanna is without any Jhāna but achieves their state via obtaining the NEFP. Since they have no Jhāna but have a concentration that is free from the hindrances it follows that they are in access concentration, where the factors of Jhāna are present but not yet strong. Without this bare minimum of concentration there can be no true understanding of dependent origination nor any meaningful contemplation of the 6 sense spheres. In fact I think the suttas support the idea that it is the arising and falling of meditative states that gives insight into the 6 sense spheres, aggregates, paṭiccasamuppāda etc.
1. As long as a concentration fulfils the five factors of jhana, it is a jhana.
This is not so. The 5 factors can exist but one can still not be in Jhāna. There will be access concentration instead.
2. If this concentration is supported by the other factors of the NEFP, it is right concentration.
Yes, but being supported by the other factors of the NEFP doesn't necessarily mean it is Jhāna. A sotāpanna has Right Concentration, that is to say concentration supported by the other factors, yet they do not have any experience of Jhāna.
3. Contact at the senses or lack thereof is not a factor of jhana.
Seclusion from sensory contact is part of Jhāna. The seclusion from kāmā.
4. Experience of contact at the senses depends on how restrictive or inclusive the object/subject of meditation is defined to be.
Ultimately it depends on where intention and attention is being directed.
5. Contact at the senses can be the basis of right mindfulness and thus can be included with the subject or object.
The basis for Right Mindfulness is Right Effort.
6. You're both right! Now get over it!!!
It would be impossible for both to be right. To offer my own conclusion, the suttas clearly support an absorbed model of the Jhānā. This is something the commentarial tradition has got right and has preserved. This is not surprising, since meditation techniques would have been passed directly from master to pupil down the ages. This then disqualifies Jhāna-lite as being a model of Jhāna. However, since the factors of Jhāna can be present in Jhāna-lite meditations and can be supported by the other factors of the NEFP we could potentially say that Jhāna-lite is Right Concentration, not because it is actual Jhāna but because it is access concentration. On this basis a Jhāna-lite approach could have the potential to lead to stream-entry or once-return. For non-return or Arahantship however absorption, i.e. Jhāna, will be required.
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Mon Apr 05, 2021 2:18 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Proposed solution to the Jhana Wars debate

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Hi Ceisiwr

I'm not going to go into why your post is a total misrepresentation... its been done to death... but answer me one simple question...

Why would the Buddha teach mindfulness of 'body' over and over again in the suttas... and then actually teach a whole sutta on mindfulness of 'body'... then proceed to teach a practice that disassociates one from the sense of body? It doesn't even pass the pub test never mind eel wriggling translations and selective ignorance.

How can mindfulness of body be practiced and developed if you're off in a trance with fairy lights?
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Re: Proposed solution to the Jhana Wars debate

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BrokenBones wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 1:17 pm
Why would the Buddha teach mindfulness of 'body' over and over again in the suttas...
Mindfulness of the body, and satipaṭṭhāna, are what help to establish someone in Jhāna.
and then actually teach a whole sutta on mindfulness of 'body'... then proceed to teach a practice that disassociates one from the sense of body? It doesn't even pass the pub test never mind eel wriggling translations and selective ignorance.
In the Kāyagatāsati sutta (MN 119) the Buddha lists several different practices, none of which are occurring at the same time. At the end of each practice the monk or nun (or layperson today) achieves concentration. The Jhānā themselves are discussed after all of these individual practices, each resulting in concentration. A simple reading of the texts establishes that whilst these body contemplations end in a state that is free from hindrances and is concentrated, they are not the Jhānā. None of those practices then are occurring whilst in Jhānā but they can lead to Jhānā, i.e. absorption.
How can mindfulness of body be practiced and developed if you're off in a trance with fairy lights?
When someone is absorbed into a kasiṇa in a non-dual state obviously there can be no awareness of the body.
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Re: Proposed solution to the Jhana Wars debate

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Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 1:52 pm
Further, how can you say that this doesn't reference the physical body?:
"Furthermore, quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, he enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He permeates & pervades, suffuses & fills this very body with the rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal. Just as if a skilled bathman or bathman's apprentice would pour bath powder into a brass basin and knead it together, sprinkling it again & again with water, so that his ball of bath powder — saturated, moisture-laden, permeated within & without — would nevertheless not drip; even so, the monk permeates... this very body with the rapture & pleasure born of withdrawal. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal. And as he remains thus heedful, ardent, & resolute, any memories & resolves related to the household life are abandoned, and with their abandoning his mind gathers & settles inwardly, grows unified & centered. This is how a monk develops mindfulness immersed in the body.

"And furthermore, with the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. He permeates & pervades, suffuses & fills this very body with the rapture & pleasure born of composure. Just like a lake with spring-water welling up from within, having no inflow from the east, west, north, or south, and with the skies supplying abundant showers time & again, so that the cool fount of water welling up from within the lake would permeate & pervade, suffuse & fill it with cool waters, there being no part of the lake unpervaded by the cool waters; even so, the monk permeates... this very body with the rapture & pleasure born of composure. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture & pleasure born of composure. And as he remains thus heedful, ardent, & resolute, any memories & resolves related to the household life are abandoned, and with their abandoning his mind gathers & settles inwardly, grows unified & centered. This is how a monk develops mindfulness immersed in the body.

"And furthermore, with the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' He permeates & pervades, suffuses & fills this very body with the pleasure divested of rapture. Just as in a lotus pond, some of the lotuses, born & growing in the water, stay immersed in the water and flourish without standing up out of the water, so that they are permeated & pervaded, suffused & filled with cool water from their roots to their tips, and nothing of those lotuses would be unpervaded with cool water; even so, the monk permeates... this very body with the pleasure divested of rapture. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded with pleasure divested of rapture. And as he remains thus heedful, ardent, & resolute, any memories & resolves related to the household life are abandoned, and with their abandoning his mind gathers & settles inwardly, grows unified & centered. This is how a monk develops mindfulness immersed in the body.

"And furthermore, with the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither-pleasure-nor-pain. He sits, permeating the body with a pure, bright awareness. Just as if a man were sitting covered from head to foot with a white cloth so that there would be no part of his body to which the white cloth did not extend; even so, the monk sits, permeating the body with a pure, bright awareness. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by pure, bright awareness. And as he remains thus heedful, ardent, & resolute, any memories & resolves related to the household life are abandoned, and with their abandoning his mind gathers & settles inwardly, grows unified & centered. This is how a monk develops mindfulness immersed in the body.
With special emphasis on the fourth Jhana. How can you misconstrue the term from head to toe to mean something other than this very body?
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Re: Proposed solution to the Jhana Wars debate

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pitithefool wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 2:16 pm

Further, how can you say that this doesn't reference the physical body?
For reasons given above, it is impossible to experience the physical body when in any Jhānā. It would also be circular reasoning, thus being a logical fallacy, to claim that "body" here must mean the physical body because it says "body". The conclusion that follows is that "body" here either refers to the nāmakāya or to the 5 aggregates. Remember my earlier argument, some time back, somewhere, that rūpa = image/form and so the rūpa-khandha does not refer to the physical body (kāya/sarīra).

With special emphasis on the fourth Jhana. How can you misconstrue the term from head to toe to mean something other than this very body?
The simple reason being this is given as a simile rather than a description of what is actually occurring. Just like how I don't think we have roots and tips in water like lotuses, I don't take this to mean we literally fill up from our physical head to toe with pure & bright awareness. Textual analysis on it's own shows this. Even in English we use the phrase "from head to toe" without being literal. Just like a man who sits from head to toe in a white cloth, the meditator permeates the nāmakāya or aggregates with pure & bright awareness.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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