Why some people lose jhana at later time?

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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confusedlayman
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Why some people lose jhana at later time?

Post by confusedlayman »

Some people might enter jhana frequently but after some time they lose their ability...

Why is that? What are all the reasons? Did sutta gave any reasons?
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
Srilankaputra
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Re: Why some people lose jhana at later time?

Post by Srilankaputra »

Samatha alone just keeps the cap on unskillful qualities. If they slide in to heedlessness...
I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying at Varanasi in the Game Refuge at Isipatana. Then early in the morning the Blessed One, having put on his robes and carrying his bowl & outer robe, went into Varanasi for alms. As he was walking for alms near the fig-tree at the cattle yoke, he saw a certain monk whose delight was in what is empty, whose delight was in exterior things, his mindfulness muddled, his alertness lacking, his concentration lacking, his mind gone astray, his faculties uncontrolled. On seeing him, the Blessed One said to him: “Monk, monk, don’t let yourself putrefy! On one who lets himself putrefy & stink with the stench of carrion, there’s no way that flies won’t swarm & attack!”

Then the monk—admonished with this, the Blessed One’s admonishment—came to his senses.

So the Blessed One, having gone for alms in Varanasi, after the meal, returning from his alms round, addressed the monks [and told them what had happened].

When this was said, a certain monk said to the Blessed One, “What, lord, is putrefaction? What is the stench of carrion? What are flies?”

“Greed, monk, is putrefaction. Ill will is the stench of carrion. Evil, unskillful thoughts are flies. On one who lets himself putrefy & stink with the stench of carrion, there’s no way that flies won’t swarm & attack.

“On one whose eyes & ears are unguarded,
whose senses are unrestrained,
flies swarm: resolves dependent on passion.
The monk who is putrid,
who stinks of the stench of carrion,
is far from Unbinding.
His share is vexation.

Whether he stays in village or wilderness,
having gained for himself no tranquillity,
he’s surrounded by flies.
But those who are consummate in virtue,
who delight in discernment & calm,
pacified, they sleep in ease.
No flies settle on them.”
https://suttacentral.net/an3.128/en/thanissaro

Wish you all success in all your endeavours. Goodbye!
Srilankaputra
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Re: Why some people lose jhana at later time?

Post by Srilankaputra »

Here is another way to understand it,
These two things play a part in realization.
_Dve me, bhikkhave, dhammā vijjābhāgiyā.

What two?
_Katame dve?

Serenity and discernment.
_Samatho ca vipassanā ca.

What is the benefit of developing serenity?
_Samatho, bhikkhave, bhāvito kamatthamanubhoti?

The mind is developed.
_Cittaṁ bhāvīyati.

What is the benefit of developing the mind?
_Cittaṁ bhāvitaṁ kamatthamanubhoti?

Greed is given up.
_Yo rāgo so pahīyati.

What is the benefit of developing discernment?
_Vipassanā, bhikkhave, bhāvitā kamatthamanubhoti?

Wisdom is developed.
_Paññā bhāvīyati.

What is the benefit of developing wisdom?
_Paññā bhāvitā kamatthamanubhoti?

Ignorance is given up.
_Yā avijjā sā pahīyati.
https://suttacentral.net/an2.21-31/en/sujato

Samatha keeps the cap on overflowing desires (which includes desires for one's views to be accepted by others) but wisdom is needed to completely shut them off.

[Ajita:]
They flow every which way,
the streams.
What is their blocking,
what their restraint — tell me —
with what are they finally stopped?

[The Buddha:]
Whatever streams
there are in the world:
their blocking is
mindfulness, mindfulness
is their restraint — I tell you —
with discernment
they're finally stopped.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Wish you all success in all your endeavours. Goodbye!
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DooDoot
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Re: Why some people lose jhana at later time?

Post by DooDoot »

confusedlayman wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 11:38 am Some people might enter jhana frequently but after some time they lose their ability...
Where did you read or hear about the above?
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
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confusedlayman
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Re: Why some people lose jhana at later time?

Post by confusedlayman »

DooDoot wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 5:02 am
confusedlayman wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 11:38 am Some people might enter jhana frequently but after some time they lose their ability...
Where did you read or hear about the above?
Many suttas address this issue here and there like monks cut this throat when he lose ability to enter etc
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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DooDoot
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Re: Why some people lose jhana at later time?

Post by DooDoot »

confusedlayman wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 6:27 am Many suttas address this issue here
Really, if there are many then post these many.
confusedlayman wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 6:27 amand there like monks cut this throat when he lose ability to enter etc
Does this sutta refer to jhana? Please post it. Thanks :thanks:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
Inedible
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Re: Why some people lose jhana at later time?

Post by Inedible »

Jhana is a temporary condition. Even when Buddha was teaching, some people complained about losing jhana after having had it. Health reasons were a common reason.
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confusedlayman
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Re: Why some people lose jhana at later time?

Post by confusedlayman »

DooDoot wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 6:31 am
confusedlayman wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 6:27 am Many suttas address this issue here
Really, if there are many then post these many.
confusedlayman wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 6:27 amand there like monks cut this throat when he lose ability to enter etc
Does this sutta refer to jhana? Please post it. Thanks :thanks:
Read the monk who cut his torat after losing jhana 7 times.. it is jhana
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
Srilankaputra
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Re: Why some people lose jhana at later time?

Post by Srilankaputra »

And further, friends, there is the case where a certain individual, quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful mental qualities, enters & remains in the first jhāna: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He, (thinking,) ‘I have gained the first jhāna,’ gets entangled with monks, nuns, male lay followers, female lay followers, kings, kings’ ministers, sectarians, and sectarians’ disciples. As he lives entangled, loosened up, uncontrolled, devoted to conversation, lust invades his mind. He, with his mind invaded by lust, gives up the training and reverts to the lower life.

“Suppose the deva of heavy rains, raining down on a great crossroads, were to make the dust disappear and mud appear. If someone were to say, ‘Never again will dust appear at that great crossroads,’ would he be speaking rightly?”

“Not at all, friend. It’s possible that human beings will pass through that great crossroads, or herd animals will pass through, or wind & heat will dry up the moisture, and then the dust will reappear.”

Etc...
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/AN/AN6_60.html

Wish you all success in all your endeavours. Goodbye!
Nobodyisspecial
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Re: Why some people lose jhana at later time?

Post by Nobodyisspecial »

I have read ajahn maha boowa talk about jhana and meditation regression, I think it was the book: straight from the heart or another of his classic books from the Thai forest tradition. I think he just calls regression or losing jhana frustrating to paraphrase his book and I found it definitely helpful to consider,all his books are on cultivation of arhartship. It's a good topic covered well by him, very readable, relatable books. Reasons? It's all part of the phenomenon.
Inedible
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Re: Why some people lose jhana at later time?

Post by Inedible »

It is always good to learn about a teacher who writes about meditation, especially for people who want to actually do it. And I have found that some of his books can be downloaded for free.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/tha ... index.html
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samseva
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Re: Why some people lose jhana at later time?

Post by samseva »

Mostly, bad sīla (and lack of sense-restraint).
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