how to understand this? developing access concentration

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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confusedlayman
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how to understand this? developing access concentration

Post by confusedlayman »

Sign, in-breath, out-breath, are not object Of a single consciousness;
By one who knows not these three things Development is not obtained.
Sign, in-breath, out-breath, are not object
Of a single consciousness;
By one who does know these three things Development can be obtained

Vism breath meditations section
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
sunnat
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Post by sunnat »

If the tendency is to cling to consciousness as something permanent, as a self, it is difficult to see that in breath happens in the present moment, during a sequence of present moments followed by a sequence of present moments during which there is out breath. Each successive moment is perceived by successive momentary consciousness in a constant flux. No moment of consciousness is the same moment of consciousness as any other momentary consciousness.
Inedible
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Re: how to understand this? developing access concentration

Post by Inedible »

The breath can be used for concentration or insight. If you are developing concentration, you will focus more on how it stays the same. To develop insight you see breath as a combination of processes which arise and pass away. Either way, you need to contemplate the five hindrances and be in a condition where they are not present. The jhana factors oppose the five hindrances. The seven awakening factors also oppose the five hindrances. For concentration you start with the breath and then switch to a learning sign. This is a mental representation of the breath. It eventually transitions into the nimitta, ideally a bright light resembling a full moon. At this point the five hindrances have been suppressed and your jhana factors are growing stronger. They must also be balanced. At which point you enter full first jhana. The books tend to be very clear about how to feel the passing of the breath in and out, but the next stages have been very hard for me to recognize in practice. It would be like using a kasina and never moving past looking at it to using a visualized version.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: how to understand this? developing access concentration

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confusedlayman wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 6:50 am Sign, in-breath, out-breath, are not object Of a single consciousness;
By one who knows not these three things Development is not obtained.
Sign, in-breath, out-breath, are not object
Of a single consciousness;
By one who does know these three things Development can be obtained

Vism breath meditations section
Ven. Buddhaghosa is quoting the Paṭisambhidāmagga. Here "sign" refers to the breath itself as it touches the nose or upper lip. This is based on the Paṭisambhidāmagga's interpretation of parimukhaṃ as meaning around the nose or lip. Ven. Buddhaghosa basis his explanation of ānāpānasati based on this, although he does also allow for an interpretation of "putting mindfulness to the fore". In regards to access concentration, this occurs when the hindrances have been abandoned. To abandon the hindrances you need to develop their antithesis, namely the 7 factors of awakening.
“Thus associating with good persons, becoming full, fills up hearing the good Dhamma. Hearing the good Dhamma, becoming full, fills up faith. Faith, becoming full, fills up careful attention. Careful attention, becoming full, fills up mindfulness and clear comprehension. Mindfulness and clear comprehension, becoming full, fill up restraint of the sense faculties. Restraint of the sense faculties, becoming full, fills up the three kinds of good conduct. The three kinds of good conduct, becoming full, fill up the four establishments of mindfulness. The four establishments of mindfulness, becoming full, fill up the seven factors of enlightenment. The seven factors of enlightenment, becoming full, fill up true knowledge and liberation. Thus there is nutriment for true knowledge and liberation, and in this way they become full."
- AN 10.61

Associating with good people > hearing the true Dhamma > faith > wise attention (yonisomanasikāro) > mindfulness & clear comprehension (sati-sampajañña) > sense restraint (all 6) > three kinds of good conduct are fulfilled > satipaṭṭhāna, which are developed via ānāpānasati which nourishes the 7 awakening factors and weakens the hindrances > access concentration > Jhāna > leave and upon reviewing there is true knowledge and liberation.

“Here a bhikkhu, gone to the forest or to the root of a tree or to an empty hut, sits down; having folded his legs crosswise, set his body erect, and established mindfulness in front of him, ever mindful he breathes in, mindful he breathes out."

Having developed wise attention, sati-sampajañña and sense restraint a meditator sits down and brings mindfulness to the fore. Mindfulness is not "awareness of the breath" but rather remembering (sati) the teachings (dhammā) regarding wholesome and unwholesome states. Mindfulness as an awakening factor is established and developed. Being mindful thus the meditator investigates their current mental state on the basis of if it is wholesome or defiled with the hindrances. Dhamma-vicaya as an awakening factor is established and developed. If the state is wholesome he maintains it. If it is defiled he overcomes it. Energy as an awakening factor is established and developed. If the mind is defiled by sloth & torpor then he turns attention towards energy & dhamma-vicaya which can arouse some piti. If his mind is defiled by restlessness & worry then instead he turns attention towards the aspect of meditation, of mind, which is tranquil, concentrated and equanimous. Balancing the factors in this way the hindrances are starved. With the abandoning of the hindrances there is joy (pāmojja). With the hindrances abandoned and joy aroused the meditator comes to truly know (pajānāti) the breath.

Dīghaṁ vā assasanto ‘dīghaṁ assasāmī’ti pajānāti, dīghaṁ vā passasanto ‘dīghaṁ passasāmī’ti pajānāti;rassaṁ vā assasanto ‘rassaṁ assasāmī’ti pajānāti, rassaṁ vā passasanto ‘rassaṁ passasāmī’ti pajānāti
Breathing in long, he understands: ‘I breathe in long’; or breathing out long, he understands: ‘I breathe out long.’ Breathing in short, he understands: ‘I breathe in short’; or breathing out short, he understands: ‘I breathe out short.’


Access concentration is thus established, and ānāpānasati can be developed. There being the awakening factors of Mindfulness, Dhamma-vicaya, Energy then on these conditions rapture as an awakening factor comes to be.

“He trains thus: ‘I shall breathe in experiencing rapture’; he trains thus: ‘I shall breathe out experiencing rapture.’
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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confusedlayman
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sunnat wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 7:27 am If the tendency is to cling to consciousness as something permanent, as a self, it is difficult to see that in breath happens in the present moment, during a sequence of present moments followed by a sequence of present moments during which there is out breath. Each successive moment is perceived by successive momentary consciousness in a constant flux. No moment of consciousness is the same moment of consciousness as any other momentary consciousness.
I think it says absorption dont arise in people who dont know consciousness is different for each cognising thing... that means its impossible for puthujana to enter jhana but how did buddha entered first time?
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Re:

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confusedlayman wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 12:51 pm
sunnat wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 7:27 am If the tendency is to cling to consciousness as something permanent, as a self, it is difficult to see that in breath happens in the present moment, during a sequence of present moments followed by a sequence of present moments during which there is out breath. Each successive moment is perceived by successive momentary consciousness in a constant flux. No moment of consciousness is the same moment of consciousness as any other momentary consciousness.
I think it says absorption dont arise in people who dont know consciousness is different for each cognising thing... that means its impossible for puthujana to enter jhana but how did buddha entered first time?
Mindfulness and clear comprehension, sense restraint, developing satipatthana through anapanasati which develops the seven awakening factors and starves the hindrances.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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confusedlayman
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Re: Re:

Post by confusedlayman »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 12:59 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 12:51 pm
sunnat wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 7:27 am If the tendency is to cling to consciousness as something permanent, as a self, it is difficult to see that in breath happens in the present moment, during a sequence of present moments followed by a sequence of present moments during which there is out breath. Each successive moment is perceived by successive momentary consciousness in a constant flux. No moment of consciousness is the same moment of consciousness as any other momentary consciousness.
I think it says absorption dont arise in people who dont know consciousness is different for each cognising thing... that means its impossible for puthujana to enter jhana but how did buddha entered first time?
Mindfulness and clear comprehension, sense restraint, developing satipatthana through anapanasati which develops the seven awakening factors and starves the hindrances.
so thinking consciousness as same will fail to destroy hinderance? how? consciousness is neutral when observing breath>?
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Re:

Post by Ceisiwr »

confusedlayman wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 1:01 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 12:59 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 12:51 pm

I think it says absorption dont arise in people who dont know consciousness is different for each cognising thing... that means its impossible for puthujana to enter jhana but how did buddha entered first time?
Mindfulness and clear comprehension, sense restraint, developing satipatthana through anapanasati which develops the seven awakening factors and starves the hindrances.
so thinking consciousness as same will fail to destroy hinderance? how? consciousness is neutral when observing breath>?
See my long first post above.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Inedible
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Re: Re:

Post by Inedible »

confusedlayman wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 1:01 pm so thinking consciousness as same will fail to destroy hinderance? how? consciousness is neutral when observing breath>?
You write like someone who has spent time trying to actually practice and experience the Dhamma. I do, too. Most people here just seem to like to argue about technical points and it isn't clear if they ever plan to actually try it at home.

Buddha's first time in first jhana was as a child. He sat down under a tree during a festival and had a spontaneous experience. He remembered it years later after struggling with extreme asceticism and almost dying. The nice woman fed him and because he ate, his five friends left him. He realized that he had been killing himself and he was looking for the next thing to try. That memory was very important.
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Re: how to understand this? developing access concentration

Post by Srilankaputra »

confusedlayman wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 6:50 am By one who knows not these three things Development is not obtained.
There is a simile of a Skilful woodman cutting a log. First he makes a mark on the log. Keeping his gaze on the mark he is aware of the saw moving back and forth but does not follow the saw back and forth. And goes about his task intelligently.

The mark on the log is a simile for the tactile marker point. That area, one has found, where the touch of the breath going in and out can be felt clearly.
confusedlayman wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 6:50 am Sign, in-breath, out-breath, are not object Of a single consciousness;
This part can be kept aside for Anapanasati Samatha. I think.

As I understand.

Wish you all success in all your endeavours. Goodbye!
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