Correct method regarding jhana?

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
shoenhad
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Correct method regarding jhana?

Post by shoenhad »

I was reading leigh brasington's view on obtaining jhana and he states that you stay with the breath until one is in access concentration and it is key to then shift one's focus to a pleasant sensation to enter jhana since there is nothing left to notice in regards to the breath in access concentration.

However this does not seem to be in accordance with other teachers like ajahn lee as shown in the following paragraph https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/tha ... html#jhana

The focus remains on the breath and it's refinement in jhana itself as opposed to a 'job done' in access concentration before moving on as a necessity to enter jhana as suggested by brasington.

It seems as though brasington would disagree with the method described here by ajahn lee including the nature and utility of the breath in different modes of concentration. What to make of these differing viewpoints?
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DooDoot
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Re: Correct method regarding jhana?

Post by DooDoot »

leigh brasington's ideas are unrelated to any reality of jhana. its too ridiculous to even discuss his superficial views
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retrofuturist
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Re: Correct method regarding jhana?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
DooDoot wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 9:16 pm leigh brasington's ideas are unrelated to any reality of jhana. its too ridiculous to even discuss his superficial views
Agreed. The bloke is a grifter who monetizes the Dhamma for personal profit (despite the Buddha's instruction against doing so) and is woefully lacking in equanimity, as evidenced by his social media activities and his unhealthy aversion towards DW member Cittasanto.

Metta,
Paul. :)
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un8-
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Re: Correct method regarding jhana?

Post by un8- »

I have read Brasington's book, and tried his (Ayya Khema's) method.

There is nothing inherently unique about his method, I can sum it up as

- Focus attention at nose (common interpretation)
- Do not want jhanas or get excited about them
- Ignore thoughts and bring attention back to nose (common interpretation)
- When good feelings arise, usually in the palms, shift attention to good feelings
- Let good feelings grow and overtake the body

There, I just saved you from buying his book.

I tried variations of his method and it has led to feeling very good. Whether this is actually what the Buddha taught or considered jhanas is up for debate.

I do agree that he is overly political and not like someone who the suttas described as having attained Samma Samadhi.

Maybe his jhanas are the wrong samadhi. In the suttas, samma Samadhi jhanas don't seem like a method or technique, but a result of an entire change in belief and lifestyle. Although the Buddha does warn against living alone in the forest unless you have jhanas proficiency. So it is something that needs to be learned.

It also seems like in the suttas, Jhanas arise after one has reflected on the state of their mind being free from the 5 hindrances. The Buddha describes it as joy and elation like having escaped a prison, a disease, or a group of bandits. So jhanas in the suttas seem to be based on purity of mind, and not a yoga technique like what Ajahn Lee and Brasington teach.
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Akashad
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Re: Correct method regarding jhana?

Post by Akashad »

I follow Pa Auk Monastery meditation system of jhana and Leigh Brasington's instructions does seem more superficial.For example,what he states as access concentration for me means a nimitta has appeared and it's just waiting to stabilise itself ...but in his instructions it seems to be just a feel good sensation...which I understand meditation can make you feel good but the feel good feeling comes from letting go..not from focusing on the feel good sensations.

so piti comes knocking,sukka comes knocking,etc...your expecting 5 guests total the five jhana factors.You dont just invite one in and shut out the others or ignore the others.

Meditation makes you feel good cause your on the breath which means ...your not on other things.. including piti.

It's like watching a.movie..instead of merging with the movie..your focusing on how the movie.makes you feel...which is fine..but your no longer experiencing the movie.
BrokenBones
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Re: Correct method regarding jhana?

Post by BrokenBones »

un8- wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 6:46 am I have read Brasington's book, and tried his (Ayya Khema's) method.

There is nothing inherently unique about his method, I can sum it up as

- Focus attention at nose (common interpretation)
- Do not want jhanas or get excited about them
- Ignore thoughts and bring attention back to nose (common interpretation)
- When good feelings arise, usually in the palms, shift attention to good feelings
- Let good feelings grow and overtake the body

There, I just saved you from buying his book.

I tried variations of his method and it has led to feeling very good. Whether this is actually what the Buddha taught or considered jhanas is up for debate.

I do agree that he is overly political and not like someone who the suttas described as having attained Samma Samadhi.

Maybe his jhanas are the wrong samadhi. In the suttas, samma Samadhi jhanas don't seem like a method or technique, but a result of an entire change in belief and lifestyle. Although the Buddha does warn against living alone in the forest unless you have jhanas proficiency. So it is something that needs to be learned.

It also seems like in the suttas, Jhanas arise after one has reflected on the state of their mind being free from the 5 hindrances. The Buddha describes it as joy and elation like having escaped a prison, a disease, or a group of bandits. So jhanas in the suttas seem to be based on purity of mind, and not a yoga technique like what Ajahn Lee and Brasington teach.
Excellent post... the Buddha never gave a 'technique'... he gave contemplations to cleanse the mind and contemplations for wisdom... the results of either could lead to jhana.
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confusedlayman
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Re: Correct method regarding jhana?

Post by confusedlayman »

Do metta and jhana will come one day
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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dicsoncandra
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Re: Correct method regarding jhana?

Post by dicsoncandra »

BrokenBones wrote: Sun Jul 18, 2021 11:16 pm
un8- wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 6:46 am I have read Brasington's book, and tried his (Ayya Khema's) method.

There is nothing inherently unique about his method, I can sum it up as

- Focus attention at nose (common interpretation)
- Do not want jhanas or get excited about them
- Ignore thoughts and bring attention back to nose (common interpretation)
- When good feelings arise, usually in the palms, shift attention to good feelings
- Let good feelings grow and overtake the body

There, I just saved you from buying his book.

I tried variations of his method and it has led to feeling very good. Whether this is actually what the Buddha taught or considered jhanas is up for debate.

I do agree that he is overly political and not like someone who the suttas described as having attained Samma Samadhi.

Maybe his jhanas are the wrong samadhi. In the suttas, samma Samadhi jhanas don't seem like a method or technique, but a result of an entire change in belief and lifestyle. Although the Buddha does warn against living alone in the forest unless you have jhanas proficiency. So it is something that needs to be learned.

It also seems like in the suttas, Jhanas arise after one has reflected on the state of their mind being free from the 5 hindrances. The Buddha describes it as joy and elation like having escaped a prison, a disease, or a group of bandits. So jhanas in the suttas seem to be based on purity of mind, and not a yoga technique like what Ajahn Lee and Brasington teach.
Excellent post... the Buddha never gave a 'technique'... he gave contemplations to cleanse the mind and contemplations for wisdom... the results of either could lead to jhana.
sīla comes first. sīla, samādhi, paññā.
arising is manifest;
ceasing is manifest;
change-while-standing is manifest.

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dicsoncandra
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Re: Correct method regarding jhana?

Post by dicsoncandra »

un8- wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 6:46 am I have read Brasington's book, and tried his (Ayya Khema's) method.

There is nothing inherently unique about his method, I can sum it up as

- Focus attention at nose (common interpretation)
- Do not want jhanas or get excited about them
- Ignore thoughts and bring attention back to nose (common interpretation)
- When good feelings arise, usually in the palms, shift attention to good feelings
- Let good feelings grow and overtake the body

There, I just saved you from buying his book.

I tried variations of his method and it has led to feeling very good. Whether this is actually what the Buddha taught or considered jhanas is up for debate.

I do agree that he is overly political and not like someone who the suttas described as having attained Samma Samadhi.

Maybe his jhanas are the wrong samadhi. In the suttas, samma Samadhi jhanas don't seem like a method or technique, but a result of an entire change in belief and lifestyle. Although the Buddha does warn against living alone in the forest unless you have jhanas proficiency. So it is something that needs to be learned.

It also seems like in the suttas, Jhanas arise after one has reflected on the state of their mind being free from the 5 hindrances. The Buddha describes it as joy and elation like having escaped a prison, a disease, or a group of bandits. So jhanas in the suttas seem to be based on purity of mind, and not a yoga technique like what Ajahn Lee and Brasington teach.
Jhana is a lifestyle :twothumbsup: I remember you referring to me as the Hillside Hermitage guy lol. Coincidentally, this was uploaded 2 hours ago:

arising is manifest;
ceasing is manifest;
change-while-standing is manifest.

Link to website: http://dicsonstable.blog/
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Correct method regarding jhana?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Didn’t Leigh himself admit that what he teaches isn’t really the Jhana of the Buddha. It’s just a reformulated and easier version to appeal to westerners, if I’m remembering correctly.
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understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
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Re: Correct method regarding jhana?

Post by un8- »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 3:04 pm Didn’t Leigh himself admit that what he teaches isn’t really the Jhana of the Buddha. It’s just a reformulated and easier version to appeal to westerners, if I’m remembering correctly.
Actually the opposite, in his book he compares 3 types of jhanas and makes the case that the sutta jhanas are closest to his interpretation.

Maybe you're thinking of Culadasa
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Correct method regarding jhana?

Post by Ceisiwr »

un8- wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 5:29 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 3:04 pm Didn’t Leigh himself admit that what he teaches isn’t really the Jhana of the Buddha. It’s just a reformulated and easier version to appeal to westerners, if I’m remembering correctly.
Actually the opposite, in his book he compares 3 types of jhanas and makes the case that the sutta jhanas are closest to his interpretation.

Maybe you're thinking of Culadasa
No it was Jhana. I’ll see if I can find it.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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DooDoot
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Re: Correct method regarding jhana?

Post by DooDoot »

un8- wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 6:46 am I tried variations of his method and it has led to feeling very good. Whether this is actually what the Buddha taught or considered jhanas is up for debate.
Its not up for debate. The mind abides in real jhana for many hours; solely experiencing pleasant or equanimous feelings.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
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Mr. Seek
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Re: Correct method regarding jhana?

Post by Mr. Seek »

Honestly, I've no idea. It's probably more than just the meditation method that matters though--maybe seclusion, sense restraint, renounciation, etc., are just as important.
shoenhad
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Re: Correct method regarding jhana?

Post by shoenhad »

DooDoot wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 9:16 pm leigh brasington's ideas are unrelated to any reality of jhana. its too ridiculous to even discuss his superficial views
There is actually a thread on here about his views as well which in part is the reason I started this one. Even though I think i largely share your position i was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt in service of an open discussion. I think the biggest red flag for me is he appears to undermine other (well established) views in favor of his own as opposed to simply presenting an alternative one although perhaps that is a failure of interpretation on my part.

Thanks everybody for the answers
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