Should meditation restrict only to monks?

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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SarathW
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Should meditation restrict only to monks?

Post by SarathW »

Should meditation restrict only to monks?
Another student in the USA told me that her husband, who has sat numerous Goenka courses, had moved into their spare room. She said he did not want to share the same bed with her, or let her touch him. He said he wanted to preserve the purity of his practice.

She told me: “I am not interested in attending these meditation courses. My husband is married to a Buddhist sect.”

A number of assistant teachers and senior students regard celibacy as a sign of spiritual development since it ends communication and inter-action of bodily sensations. Such students believe that celibacy shows the transcendence of the desire for pleasurable body sensations. Some married assistant teachers and other long-standing students now sleep in separate bedrooms.
https://www.christophertitmussblog.org/ ... -proposals

I have heard this sort of complaint in Sri Lanka, that some women who attend these meditation programs refuse relationships with their legitimate husbands. Perhaps it seems that there is some misunderstanding of their attainments as they are Anagamis.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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JamesTheGiant
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Re: Should meditation restrict only to monks?

Post by JamesTheGiant »

SarathW wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 11:19 pm Should meditation restrict only to monks?
Meditation is an important part of the path.
Maybe it's not a problem with meditation, maybe it's a problem with what these laypeople are taught about celibacy.

But, the Buddha did talk about and praise 8-precept laypeople...
Maybe it's just a problem with one person in the marriage not talking with the other person, about their decisions and spiritual path.

I dunno.
SarathW
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Re: Should meditation restrict only to monks?

Post by SarathW »

Agree.
Perhaps this is not a problem of the lay meditation, the method, or the instructor.
It is some misunderstanding or miss communication.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Nobodyisspecial
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Re: Should meditation restrict only to monks?

Post by Nobodyisspecial »

Touchy subject.

So your not in the mood for more babies?

I suspect you can marry or divorce whoever you like?

Could be a sign they are over you?

Meditate on that!
auto
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Re: Should meditation restrict only to monks?

Post by auto »

SarathW wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 11:19 pm ..
i have similar attitude,
https://suttacentral.net/dn27/en/sujato wrote: Women spent too much time gazing at men, and men at women.
Itthī ca purisaṁ ativelaṁ upanijjhāyati puriso ca itthiṁ.
They became lustful, and their bodies burned with fever.
Tesaṁ ativelaṁ aññamaññaṁ upanijjhāyataṁ sārāgo udapādi, pariḷāho kāyasmiṁ okkami.
Due to this fever they had sex with each other.
Te pariḷāhapaccayā methunaṁ dhammaṁ paṭiseviṁsu.

Those who saw them having sex pelted them with dirt, ashes, or cow-dung, saying,
Ye kho pana te, vāseṭṭha, tena samayena sattā passanti methunaṁ dhammaṁ paṭisevante, aññe paṁsuṁ khipanti, aññe seṭṭhiṁ khipanti, aññe gomayaṁ khipanti:
‘Get lost, filth! Get lost, filth!
‘nassa asuci, nassa asucī’ti.
How on earth can one being do that to another?’
‘Kathañhi nāma satto sattassa evarūpaṁ karissatī’ti.
and notice here the satta usage.
SarathW
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Re: Should meditation restrict only to monks?

Post by SarathW »

How on earth can one being do that to another?’
:rofl:
When I was very young, I was very angry with dogs thinking they are harassing the bitches.
I used to hit them or throw stones at them .
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Alino
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Re: Should meditation restrict only to monks?

Post by Alino »

There is no problem in non-smoking people, there is problem in smokers to want others to smoke with them.

Méditation is not a problem, problem I à not-meditation.

Iam in the same situation and have tendency to refuse sex to my wife. Why?

Because:
- it is of big physical effort and of very little pleasure. The effort we need to do is much bigger than superficial and short pleasure tgat we can get from it. It's just some spazm - why bodily spazm is considered to be pleasant? Why doing big effort and getting small pleasure from it, if a practitioner can close his eyes and get a supreme pleasure of higher mind? Its like to propose to some businesses invested to invest 100 and get 1 back, while he knows ways to invest 1 and get 100 - he will refuse this offer...
- in order to engage in sex, a practitioner have to engage with animal state of mind, he have to voluntary loose his mind clarity. Lustfull state of mind is a very havy and muddled state of mind that in felt unpleasant. Its not the sex in itself that is problem, but a lustful state of mind which is required in order to engage in such activity.
Ìts like propose to one who wear silk clothes to exchange them on picky raw robe on; or propose to someone who enjoys lightness to take a burden and cary it on - they will gently refuse these offers...

Absence if sexual engagement while married doesn't mean absence of tendress, kindness and metta, it doesn't mean dryness of relationship. If it is the case - practice have some disbalance and one should practice more brahmaviharas.

Those who smoke shouldn't require from people who enjoy fresh air to smoke with them.

Imho...
Last edited by Alino on Fri Aug 27, 2021 3:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: Should meditation restrict only to monks?

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
un8-
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Re: Should meditation restrict only to monks?

Post by un8- »

You can attain up to once-return without being celibate. Personally I think a lay person who has attained sotapanna has made good use of their human life. Taking on further practice that strains their life and increases stress is not worth it, unless you want to get divorced/give away your wife like Ugga the householder did, to become a non-returner.
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Re: Should meditation restrict only to monks?

Post by Spiny Norman »

The focus on meditation for lay-people seems to be a western thing.
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TRobinson465
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Re: Should meditation restrict only to monks?

Post by TRobinson465 »

SarathW wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 11:19 pm Should meditation restrict only to monks?
No, nothing should be restricted.
Another student in the USA told me that her husband, who has sat numerous Goenka courses, had moved into their spare room. She said he did not want to share the same bed with her, or let her touch him. He said he wanted to preserve the purity of his practice.

She told me: “I am not interested in attending these meditation courses. My husband is married to a Buddhist sect.”

A number of assistant teachers and senior students regard celibacy as a sign of spiritual development since it ends communication and inter-action of bodily sensations. Such students believe that celibacy shows the transcendence of the desire for pleasurable body sensations. Some married assistant teachers and other long-standing students now sleep in separate bedrooms.

https://www.christophertitmussblog.org/ ... -proposals

I have heard this sort of complaint in Sri Lanka, that some women who attend these meditation programs refuse relationships with their legitimate husbands. Perhaps it seems that there is some misunderstanding of their attainments as they are Anagamis.
Didnt something similar happen in the Buddha's time of a woman who wanted to take 8 precepts but her husband didnt want her to be chaste?

I dont think you have to be enlightened to want to pursue such a path. but i do understand it is sorta inconsiderate to thier partner. But granted the spirtual path can be considered more important than secular responsibilities at times. The Buddha himself left his wife and son for the spiritual path. I dont think its necessarily wrong that people do this, but they should at least take thier partner into account if making such a decision. the Buddha was sorta a special case because he wanted to find the path to ending suffering for the benefit of himself but also for the benefit of his wife and son and all beings as well.
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Alino
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Re: Should meditation restrict only to monks?

Post by Alino »

If a practitioner realised the dukkha of sexual intercoarse, and if its unpleasant for him/her, I don't see why they should force themselves?
Forceful sex isn't a rape?

If someone don't like meat why someone would force him to eat it?

Also, no need to be Anagami, in order to find it unpleasant. There is cases of a-sexuality.
Deeply loving some person doesn't mean wanting sex with him.
Last edited by Alino on Sun Aug 29, 2021 7:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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confusedlayman
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Re: Should meditation restrict only to monks?

Post by confusedlayman »

without jhana if one gives up x then he needs to do jhana soon before he falls back
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
Nobodyisspecial
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Re: Should meditation restrict only to monks?

Post by Nobodyisspecial »

First I am not married. If I did have a spouse that wanted no intimacy I would be disappointed probably. I can see the dilemma, a mediator finds deep bliss and neglects their spouse. Any meditator that does not want intimacy with their spouse would be happy to dismiss them. Or at least ready. Sure meditation when you get to jhana does eliminate labido. Maybe it's a bad love story but Buddhism is more about celibacy than love. Buddhism is more about the end of grief than loving connections of sensuality. These addictive passions will not lead to happiness in a meditators perspective and giving up the inferior for the superior is prudent.

2) here is the other consideration. Are relationships full of domestic arguments commonly? What about a meditator? Do you think they are throwing tantrums? Or self controlled? Do you think many laity meditators give up carnal desires or even in Buddhism there is adulteration scandals?

3) is intimacy a choice or a obligation in marriage? I would say if it is not consensual it is misconduct. Why leave a spouse if you love them because they don't respond to sensuality?
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