Leigh Brasington and "Jhana-Lite" (Why there is no such thing as "jhāna-lite")

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Leigh Brasington and "Jhana-Lite" (Why there is no such thing as "jhāna-lite")

Post by Ceisiwr »

arkaprava wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 8:45 pm
Yes. Even more explicit is how similar the Upanishadic description of meditation is when compared to the Theravādin one.

‘When yoga is being performed, the forms that come first, producing apparitions in Brahman, are those of misty smoke, sun, fire, wind, fire-flies, lightnings, and a crystal moon.”

- Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad

“214. When he does so in this way, the sign soon appears to him. But it is not the same for all; on the contrary, some say that when it appears it does so to certain people producing a light touch like cotton or silk-cotton or a draught.
215. But this is the exposition given in the commentaries: It appears to some like a star or a cluster of gems or a cluster of pearls, to others with a rough touch like that of silk-cotton seeds or a peg made of heartwood, to others like a long braid string or a wreath of flowers or a puff of smoke, to others like a stretched-out cobweb or a film of cloud or a lotus flower or a chariot wheel or the moon’s disk or the sun’s disk.”


Visuddhimagga

Which shouldn’t be surprising seeing as how the jhānas aren’t a uniquely Buddhist attainment. Other ascetics can and did achieve them.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Leigh Brasington and "Jhana-Lite" (Why there is no such thing as "jhāna-lite")

Post by arkaprava »

I am quite aware, being born in a Hindu family, also I studied computer science in Belur Math, their monastic learning is a lot of Shankaracharya,Gauḍapāda, Upanishads and Brahma sutras . Very nice people.
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Re: Leigh Brasington and "Jhana-Lite" (Why there is no such thing as "jhāna-lite")

Post by arkaprava »

When the meditator purifies the mind of the nine lesser defilements by attending to the in and out
breaths, he obtains the arising of the sign.
“The sign”: It is like the pleasant touch of spinning silk or spinning cotton wool touching the
body or it is like the pleasant touch of a cool breeze touching the body.
Thus, contemplation of the touching of wind of the in and out breaths at the nose or on the lip
gives rise to the sign of wind, which is not is due to shape or colour.This is called “the sign.”
If the meditator practises and much practises the sign, he can increase it at the nose-tip, at the
glabella, on the forehead or he can establish it in many places. He pervades his head with wind.

Through increasing in this way he can pervade his whole body with the happiness of tranquillity
(passaddhi-sukha). This is called “fulfilment.”

Again, there is a meditator who sees deviant signs from the beginning such as smoke, mist, dust,
gold sand, or [he experiences] the pricking of a needle or an ant’s bite, or he sees various
colours/forms (vanna, rúpa). If the meditator's mind does not clearly comprehend these deviant signs,
his mind will give rise to deviant perceptions, and there is distortion [of perception] (vipallása,
vipariyáya), not the perception of breathing.
If [however] the meditator clearly comprehends, he does not attend to strange signs. When
mindfully breathing in and mindfully breathing out, he prevents the arising of other perceptions. If he
attends thus, deviant signs promptly cease, he acquires the subtle sign940 and his mind becomes diligent
(appamáda). - Vimuttimagga
.


When you see that a nimitta has appeared, mindfully focus your awareness on it — but be sure to focus on only one at a time, choosing whichever one is most comfortable. Once you've got hold of it, expand it so that it's as large as your head. The bright white nimitta is useful to the body and mind: It's a pure breath that can cleanse the blood in the body, reducing or eliminating feelings of physical pain.

When you have this white light as large as the head, bring it down to The Fifth Base, the center of the chest. Once it's firmly settled, let it spread out to fill the chest. Make this breath as white and as bright as possible, and then let both the breath and the light spread throughout the body, out to every pore, until different parts of the body appear on their own as pictures. If you don't want the pictures, take two or three long breaths and they'll disappear. Keep your awareness still and expansive. Don't let it latch onto or be affected by any nimitta that may happen to pass into the brightness of the breath. Keep careful watch over the mind. Keep it one. Keep it intent on a single preoccupation, the refined breath, letting this refined breath suffuse the entire body.- Keeping the breath in Mind- Method 1, Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo
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Re: Leigh Brasington and "Jhana-Lite" (Why there is no such thing as "jhāna-lite")

Post by BrokenBones »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 9:10 pm
arkaprava wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 8:45 pm
Yes. Even more explicit is how similar the Upanishadic description of meditation is when compared to the Theravādin one.

‘When yoga is being performed, the forms that come first, producing apparitions in Brahman, are those of misty smoke, sun, fire, wind, fire-flies, lightnings, and a crystal moon.”

- Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad

“214. When he does so in this way, the sign soon appears to him. But it is not the same for all; on the contrary, some say that when it appears it does so to certain people producing a light touch like cotton or silk-cotton or a draught.
215. But this is the exposition given in the commentaries: It appears to some like a star or a cluster of gems or a cluster of pearls, to others with a rough touch like that of silk-cotton seeds or a peg made of heartwood, to others like a long braid string or a wreath of flowers or a puff of smoke, to others like a stretched-out cobweb or a film of cloud or a lotus flower or a chariot wheel or the moon’s disk or the sun’s disk.”


Visuddhimagga

Which shouldn’t be surprising seeing as how the jhānas aren’t a uniquely Buddhist attainment. Other ascetics can and did achieve them.
That makes your position much clearer. I've only ever been discussing the Buddha's jhana... Samma Samadhi.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Leigh Brasington and "Jhana-Lite" (Why there is no such thing as "jhāna-lite")

Post by Ceisiwr »

BrokenBones wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 9:51 pm […
What makes Jhana right or wrong isn’t the experience but how it’s viewed and used. If someone attains Jhana but views it in terms of a self, that’s wrong Jhana. As to if your position is what the Buddha taught, we wouldn’t know would we. You don’t make arguments. A bit like someone else so far.

“What do you mean animals evolved? Have you ever seen a crocofish!? Herp derp”
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Leigh Brasington and "Jhana-Lite" (Why there is no such thing as "jhāna-lite")

Post by BrokenBones »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 9:53 pm
BrokenBones wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 9:51 pm […
What makes Jhana right or wrong isn’t the experience but how it’s viewed and used. If someone attains Jhana but views it in terms of a self, that’s wrong Jhana. As to if your position is what the Buddha taught, we wouldn’t know would we. You don’t make arguments.

“What do you mean animals evolved? Have you ever seen a crocofish!? Herp derp”
I think you should read what you've just written... it is how it is used AND the experience itself that determines right or wrong.

You're right... I don't make arguments... I let the Buddha do the talking... keep trawling the internet for obscure, unsubstantiated and unintelligible snippets to back up your view.

As for 'animals evolving....crocofish... herp derp'... have you been on the grog? Because I haven't the faintest.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Leigh Brasington and "Jhana-Lite" (Why there is no such thing as "jhāna-lite")

Post by Ceisiwr »

BrokenBones wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 10:04 pm
I think you should read what you've just written... it is how it is used AND the experience itself that determines right or wrong.
The brahmavihārās and formless predate the Buddha. Both can be used for liberation, or not. The experience is the same. What differs is in how they are used and understood. The same for jhāna, which were practiced by others. The Buddha wasn’t the first to discover jhāna. He was the first to understand them. That is part of the insight which other ascetics lacked.
You're right... I don't make arguments... I let the Buddha do the talking... keep trawling the internet for obscure, unsubstantiated and unintelligible snippets to back up your view.
Best stop your non-contributions then. People want an actual insightful discussion rather than moronic sarcastic sneering from the sidelines, which adds nothing to the conversation. Nor “I’m only stating what the Buddha taught”. We all think we are doing that. Hands up anyone who thinks they are arguing for something the Buddha didn’t teach? Anyone? No?
As for 'animals evolving....crocofish... herp derp'... have you been on the grog? Because I haven't the faintest.
I’m making a comparison. It isn’t that hard to work out.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Leigh Brasington and "Jhana-Lite" (Why there is no such thing as "jhāna-lite")

Post by BrokenBones »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 10:11 pm
BrokenBones wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 10:04 pm
I think you should read what you've just written... it is how it is used AND the experience itself that determines right or wrong.
The brahmavihārās and formless predate the Buddha. Both can be used for liberation, or not. The experience is the same. What differs is in how they are used and understood. The same for jhāna, which were practiced by others. The Buddha wasn’t the first to discover jhāna. He was the first to understand them. That is part of the insight which other ascetics lacked.
You're right... I don't make arguments... I let the Buddha do the talking... keep trawling the internet for obscure, unsubstantiated and unintelligible snippets to back up your view.
Best stop your non-contributions then. People want an actual insightful discussion, rather than moronic sarcastic sneering from the sidelines which adds nothing to the conversation. Nor “I’m only stating what the Buddha taught”. We all think we are doing that. Hands up anyone who thinks they are arguing for something the Buddha didn’t teach? Anyone? No?
As for 'animals evolving....crocofish... herp derp'... have you been on the grog? Because I haven't the faintest.
I’m making a comparison. It isn’t that hard to work out.
I think to sum it up... you don't like the Buddha's plainly spoken words and seem to prefer anyone else's input as long as it backs up your nonsensical 'body of mind'... there is no real need for deep analysis of this or the requirement to scuttle off to 'ancients' to find snippets you can find refuge in. The whole idea of the Buddha teaching 'absent' jhanas is a non starter and I think your reactions show just that.

You ask for 'arguments'... the sutta I mashed up on another thread is YOUR argument... and it is total garbage.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Leigh Brasington and "Jhana-Lite" (Why there is no such thing as "jhāna-lite")

Post by Ceisiwr »

BrokenBones wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 10:33 pm

I think to sum it up... you don't like the Buddha's plainly spoken words and seem to prefer anyone else's input as long as it backs up your nonsensical 'body of mind'... there is no real need for deep analysis of this or the requirement to scuttle off to 'ancients' to find snippets you can find refuge in. The whole idea of the Buddha teaching 'absent' jhanas is a non starter and I think your reactions show just that.
Yes, of course. Ven. Bodhi, Ajahn Buddhadasa, Ajahn Anālayo, Ajahn Sujato and all of the Sarvāstivādins don’t/didn’t like what the Buddha had to say, so we just make stuff up. Totally makes sense doesn’t it. Typical thinking for a sectarian with no counter arguments to bare. Reminds me of Protestant rants about the Pope being the anti-Christ.
You ask for 'arguments'... the sutta I mashed up on another thread is YOUR argument... and it is total garbage.
Not according to the āgamas, nor the suttas really when you bother to pull different suttas together to get a whole picture. Your post wasn’t an argument either.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Leigh Brasington and "Jhana-Lite" (Why there is no such thing as "jhāna-lite")

Post by mikenz66 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 10:44 pm
BrokenBones wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 10:33 pm

I think to sum it up... you don't like the Buddha's plainly spoken words and seem to prefer anyone else's input as long as it backs up your nonsensical 'body of mind'... there is no real need for deep analysis of this or the requirement to scuttle off to 'ancients' to find snippets you can find refuge in. The whole idea of the Buddha teaching 'absent' jhanas is a non starter and I think your reactions show just that.
Yes, of course. Ven. Bodhi, Ajahn Buddhadasa, Ajahn Anālayo, Ajahn Sujato and all of the Sarvāstivādins don’t/didn’t like what the Buddha had to say, so we just make stuff up. Totally makes sense doesn’t it. Typical thinking for a sectarian with no counter arguments to bare. Reminds me of Protestant rants about the Pope being the anti-Christ.
And since these disagreements apparently go back to at least the Third council, it's not as if it's "obvious"...
viewtopic.php?p=560317#p560317

Not yet having had the opportunity to spend months, let alone years, developing samadhi, I tend to simply follow Ven Dhammanando's advice at that link:
Dhammanando wrote: Wed May 13, 2020 11:23 am As the disagreement doesn't involve any difference of opinion over how the preliminary practice of samatha-bhāvanā is to be carried out, one always has the option of just going ahead with the work while maintaining an agnostic stance on the contested questions about what jhāna is like.
:heart:
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Re: Leigh Brasington and "Jhana-Lite" (Why there is no such thing as "jhāna-lite")

Post by arkaprava »

“MA [Majjhima Nikāya Aṭṭhakathā] explains ‘experiencing the whole body’ (sabbakāya-paṭisaṃvedī) as signifying that the meditator becomes aware of each in-breath and out-breath through its three phasesof beginning, middle, and end. In the first edition I followed this explanation and added in brackets ‘ofbreath’ after ‘the whole body.’ In retrospect, however, this interpretation seems forced, and I now prefer to take the phrase quite literally. It is also difficult to see how paṭisaṃvedī could mean ‘is aware of,’ as it is based on a verb meaning ‘to experience.’”


“I used to think that the commentary was completely correct on this, but then it struck me to just focus on the Pāli words sabbakāya, which simply means ‘whole body,’ and also the word that comes after that,paṭisaṃvedī. Now the word paṭisaṃvedī has the sense of ‘experiencing’ rather than the sense ofawareness or knowing. It’s more akin to what you might call the feeling aspect of experience than to the knowing aspect of experience. In fact, the root of this word is related to the word vedanā which means feeling. And so what seems to me to be taking place here is that while breathing in and breathing out one’s awareness (or range of experience) is now expanding to the point that it can encompass the whole body and take in the whole body while one’s attention is still fixed at this particular point at the nostrilswhere one feels the breath most distinctly coming in and going out.
“And I think this can be related to one’s experience in the jhānas in that it might be suggesting a stage inthe development of mindfulness of breathing either approaching close to the jhāna or within the jhāna itself. I find some support for this if one takes a look at the Mahā-Assapura Sutta, which gives a standard way of explaining the four jhānas. The text describes a monk who has abandoned the five hindrances andwho ‘enters upon and abides in the first jhāna, which is accompanied by applied and sustained thought,with rapture and pleasure born of seclusion. He makes the rapture and pleasure born of seclusion drench,steep, fill, and pervade this body, so that there is no part of his whole body...’ (it uses the expression sabbakāya), ‘... unpervaded by the rapture and pleasure born of seclusion.’ And then the text goes on to use the simile of the barber or barber's apprentice who prepares a ball of bathing powder or shaving powder in a metal basin, sprinkles it with water, and then mixes it so that the water entirely pervades the soap powder inside and out. We get a similar simile in each of the next three paragraphs. Each paragraph includes the expression of the ‘whole body’ being completely pervaded by the qualities within each particular jhānic attainment.

“Coming back to the Ānāpānasati Sutta, I don’t think this sentence necessarily indicates that themeditator has already reached the jhāna, but it seems to indicate what I would call a widening or expanding of the range of experience so that as the pīti and sukha — the rapture and happiness, the joyand happiness — are building up along with the development of concentration, they’re now experienced as pervading the whole body. And so with attention still focused at the nostrils, or around the nostrils,he’s experiencing that joy and happiness extending through the whole body.”
- Bhikkhu Bodhi
Last edited by arkaprava on Sun Sep 05, 2021 11:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Leigh Brasington and "Jhana-Lite" (Why there is no such thing as "jhāna-lite")

Post by Ceisiwr »

mikenz66 wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 11:06 pm
Ven. Dhammanando: As the disagreement doesn't involve any difference of opinion over how the preliminary practice of samatha-bhāvanā is to be carried out, one always has the option of just going ahead with the work while maintaining an agnostic stance on the contested questions about what jhāna is like.
That’s good advice, although it does have one drawback in that someone might mistake some lesser form of meditative experience for Jhana itself. I believe you once said it’s better to underestimate your experience rather than overestimate it, and I think there is some truth to that. I think for a lot of Jhana-lite folks who think they have experienced Jhana it would be good to ask “why then am I not even a stream-enterer yet?”. If it’s real Jhana you have experienced, you should be at least that.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Leigh Brasington and "Jhana-Lite" (Why there is no such thing as "jhāna-lite")

Post by arkaprava »

I considered: ‘I recall that when my father the Sakyan was occupied, while I was sitting in the cool shade of a rose-apple tree, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, I entered upon and abided in the first jhāna, which is accompanied by applied and sustained thought, with rapture and pleasure born of seclusion.
Did the Buddha become a stream-enterer after this ?
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Leigh Brasington and "Jhana-Lite" (Why there is no such thing as "jhāna-lite")

Post by Ceisiwr »

arkaprava wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 11:09 pm
There is an agama which instead of “all body” has “all breaths”. Even with the Theravada sutta the text itself states that the breath is a body amongst the bodies, which is what one is being mindful of. Regarding the body similes, do you have anything else to add? How would diversifying perception go along with Jhana being of one perception? How can one be in a non-dual state whilst also being aware of various bodily contacts?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Leigh Brasington and "Jhana-Lite" (Why there is no such thing as "jhāna-lite")

Post by Ceisiwr »

arkaprava wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 11:17 pm
I considered: ‘I recall that when my father the Sakyan was occupied, while I was sitting in the cool shade of a rose-apple tree, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, I entered upon and abided in the first jhāna, which is accompanied by applied and sustained thought, with rapture and pleasure born of seclusion.
Did the Buddha become a stream-enterer after this ?
Before he had right view, no. I’m assuming that the Jhana-lite folks do have it, so when Leigh et al. claim every attainment under the sun, we have to ask how they aren’t at least stream-enterers yet? It seems Jhana-lite would make not only Jhana something of a banality, but all 4 levels of awakening too.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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