Leigh Brasington and "Jhana-Lite" (Why there is no such thing as "jhāna-lite")

[Ceisiwr]

I'm not sure what the "Sarvāstivādin version" would involve, and again apologies if that were dealt with upthread somewhere. But unless it suggested a new and plausible denotation for kāya; which was more consistent with the figurative language used to describe processes it is involved in; and was more consistent with the actual experience of meditation as I've been taught it - then I would consider it to be of merely academic interest.

You didn’t answer the question.

Sorry. I'm not sure what the question is, exactly. Is it based on the idea that being aware of the body is incompatible with jhāna?

I’m asking how someone can be aware of the physical body whilst in jhāna when saññāmanasikārā is a hindrance to that very same jhāna? It’s a point the jhāna-lite folks always ignore.

[Sam Vara]

You didn’t answer the question.

Sorry. I'm not sure what the question is, exactly. Is it based on the idea that being aware of the body is incompatible with jhāna?

I’m asking how someone can be aware of the physical body whilst in jhāna when saññāmanasikārā is a hindrance to that very same jhāna? It’s a point the jhāna-lite folks always ignore.

Again, I don't exactly know what "jhāna-lite" means (but it appears that battle lines have hardened!) nor exactly what saññamanasikārā is (it appears to mean something like "bearing ap/perceptions in mind...?) nor why it is a hindrance to jhāna.

[Modus.Ponens]

You didn’t answer the question.

Sorry. I'm not sure what the question is, exactly. Is it based on the idea that being aware of the body is incompatible with jhāna?

I’m asking how someone can be aware of the physical body whilst in jhāna when saññāmanasikārā is a hindrance to that very same jhāna? It’s a point the jhāna-lite folks always ignore.

I probably missed when you made that point earlier in the thread. I don't remember reading or hearing that saññāmanasikārā is a hindrance to jhana before. Can you link to your original argument?

[Ceisiwr]

Again, I don't exactly know what "jhāna-lite" means (but it appears that battle lines have hardened!) nor exactly what saññamanasikārā is (it appears to mean something like "bearing ap/perceptions in mind...?) nor why it is a hindrance to jhāna.

Saññamanasikārā - Perceptions (let's just go with perception for now) and attentions, plural.

"When I understood that doubt is a corruption of the mind, I gave it up. When I understood that loss of focus, dullness and drowsiness, terror, excitement, discomfort, excessive energy, overly lax energy, longing, perception of diversity, and excessive concentration on forms are corruptions of the mind, I gave them up."

- MN 128

This occurs before Jhāna.

"First, take a mendicant who, quite secluded from sensual pleasures … enters and remains in the first absorption. While a mendicant is in such a meditation, should perceptions and attentions accompanied by sensual pleasures beset them, that’s an affliction for them.

Tassa ce, āvuso, bhikkhuno iminā vihārena viharato kāmasahagatā saññāmanasikārā samudācaranti, svassa hoti ābādho."

- AN 9.34

Having multiple attentions of perception is a hindrance to the Jhāna. It's unlikely that the Jhāna are states without any perception or attention, and so it follows that if multiple perceptions are what is going wrong when it comes to Jhāna then a singular attention of perception is when it is going right, i.e. absorption. I will grant that MN 128 talks about nānattasaññā instead of saññāmanasikārā, but it seems to be just another way of expressing the same idea. Since then Jhāna are of 1 perception and 1 perception only, in other words absorption, how can one simultaneously be aware of the physical body at the same time? To me it's like trying to square a circle. With that in mind, when we read these similes it begins to cast doubt that the physical body is meant here. Instead then we could view it as being the nāmakāya, or that these bodily experiences are occurring after the meditator has left the absorption (which is the commentarial explanation). The other possibility is that the Sarvāstivādin version is more accurate, which paints a more mental experience regarding these similes.

Sarvāstivādin: "The third jhana is like a mountain that’s solid without cracks and it’s limitless in size. When an east wind blows on it, it isn’t moved by it. It’s the same with south, west, and north winds. That’s because it’s root is solid and imperturbable. It has a water spring that’s clear and delicious, without any pollutants. it supports the mountain by filling it up and flows all around it. The water purifies it.

The monk is likewise. In this body of contemplation, there’s no delight or comfort to depend on. His (mental) activity is perfected, observing there’s no body, and then his view is universal."

Theravādin: "And furthermore, with the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana,...' He permeates & pervades, suffuses & fills this very body with the pleasure divested of rapture. Just as in a lotus pond, some of the lotuses, born & growing in the water, stay immersed in the water and flourish without standing up out of the water, so that they are permeated & pervaded, suffused & filled with cool water from their roots to their tips, and nothing of those lotuses would be unpervaded with cool water; even so, the monk permeates... this very body with the pleasure divested of rapture. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded with pleasure divested of rapture. And as he remains thus heedful, ardent, & resolute, any memories & resolves related to the household life are abandoned, and with their abandoning his mind gathers & settles inwardly, grows unified & centered. This is how a monk develops mindfulness immersed in the body.

Notice that in the suttas it talks bout mindfulness immersed in the body, which for the āgama simply means the meditation experience itself. In ancient India, just like today, "body" can mean different things. In the Upanisads for example Ātman is also a "body". For Pakudha Kaccāyana, the 4 elements are each individual "bodies". Air is a body. Fire is a body, and so on.

[Ceisiwr]

Sorry. I'm not sure what the question is, exactly. Is it based on the idea that being aware of the body is incompatible with jhāna?

I’m asking how someone can be aware of the physical body whilst in jhāna when saññāmanasikārā is a hindrance to that very same jhāna? It’s a point the jhāna-lite folks always ignore.

I probably missed when you made that point earlier in the thread. I don't remember reading or hearing that saññāmanasikārā is a hindrance to jhana before. Can you link to your original argument?

See above.

[Sam Vara]

Again, I don't exactly know what "jhāna-lite" means (but it appears that battle lines have hardened!) nor exactly what saññamanasikārā is (it appears to mean something like "bearing ap/perceptions in mind...?) nor why it is a hindrance to jhāna.

Saññamanasikārā - Perceptions (let's just go with perception for now) and attentions, plural.

"When I understood that doubt is a corruption of the mind, I gave it up. When I understood that loss of focus, dullness and drowsiness, terror, excitement, discomfort, excessive energy, overly lax energy, longing, perception of diversity, and excessive concentration on forms are corruptions of the mind, I gave them up."

- MN 128

This occurs before Jhāna.

"First, take a mendicant who, quite secluded from sensual pleasures … enters and remains in the first absorption. While a mendicant is in such a meditation, should perceptions and attentions accompanied by sensual pleasures beset them, that’s an affliction for them.

Tassa ce, āvuso, bhikkhuno iminā vihārena viharato kāmasahagatā saññāmanasikārā samudācaranti, svassa hoti ābādho."

- AN 9.34

Yes, I think that the first one is talking about perception of diversity (which seems to me to be quite different from the unified experience of the ball of bath-powder; more like the attention not settling and moving between objects) and it is, as you say, describing the process before jhāna, rather than jhāna itself. And the AN 9.34 quote is about perceptions accompanied by sensual pleasures. It's connected with kāma, which I take from the context to mean desire or longing.

Having multiple attentions of perception is a hindrance to the Jhāna. It's unlikely that the Jhāna are states without any perception or attention, and so it follows that if multiple perceptions are what is going wrong when it comes to Jhāna then a singular attention of perception is when it is going right, i.e. absorption.

Yes, that's my understanding.

Since then Jhāna are of 1 perception and 1 perception only, in other words absorption, how can one simultaneously be aware of the physical body at the same time?

One is in control of the process, with mindfulness allowing one to withdraw from the one-pointedness of concentration. This would also be needed in moving between jhānas, and for ending the practice.

With that in mind, when we read these similes it begins to cast doubt that the physical body is meant here.

Maybe, but for me the three components that I mentioned earlier decides it the other way. First, the absence of indication within the text that kāya means something other than the physical body. Second, that the similes are predominantly tactile and refer to entities extended in space. Thirdly, that if the text refers to some as-yet unexperienced mental processes, then it is merely academic and I rapidly lose interest. Only if it describes my meditation or other actual experiences does it motivate me to explore.

Notice that in the suttas it talks bout mindfulness immersed in the body, which for the āgama simply means the meditation experience itself. In ancient India, just like today, "body" can mean different things. In the Upanisads for example Ātman is also a "body". For Pakudha Kaccāyana, the 4 elements are each individual "bodies". Air is a body. Fire is a body, and so on.

Yes, of course. But when I've felt the body and realised the aptness of the similes, why would I want to look at other interpretations?

[Ceisiwr]

Yes, I think that the first one is talking about perception of diversity (which seems to me to be quite different from the unified experience of the ball of bath-powder; more like the attention not settling and moving between objects) and it is, as you say, describing the process before jhāna, rather than jhāna itself. And the AN 9.34 quote is about perceptions accompanied by sensual pleasures. It's connected with kāma, which I take from the context to mean desire or longing.

Perception of diversity means the 5 senses. If perception of diversity is a hindrance then it follows that within the experience of Jhāna there is no experience of the 5 senses, meaning there is 1 attention of perception which must be mental in nature. AN 9.34 repeats the same for all of the attainments, so it's not just about diverse kāma (i think the texts indicate that kāma are sense objects, but let's put that to the side). Based on this then, it's hard to read the similes in question as referring to an experience of the physical body whilst in Jhāna. They then either refer to experiences after one has left the attainment (the commentarial explanation) or they refer to a purely mental experience (the Sarvāstivādin version).

One is in control of the process, with mindfulness allowing one to withdraw from the one-pointedness of concentration. This would also be needed in moving between jhānas, and for ending the practice.

Well sure, so you would read the similes then as referring to states outside of the actual attainment then?

Yes, of course. But when I've felt the body and realised the aptness of the similes, why would I want to look at other interpretations?

To see if you are interpreting it correctly. Of course after Jhāna the body and mind will be calm. What really is being asked is if there is awareness of the body whilst in Jhāna, or if it's pure absorption. If it is pure absorption, and if these similes are about the actual experience of Jhāna as opposed to what happens just after it, then "body" here cannot mean the physical body.

[Sam Vara]

Yes, I think that the first one is talking about perception of diversity (which seems to me to be quite different from the unified experience of the ball of bath-powder; more like the attention not settling and moving between objects) and it is, as you say, describing the process before jhāna, rather than jhāna itself. And the AN 9.34 quote is about perceptions accompanied by sensual pleasures. It's connected with kāma, which I take from the context to mean desire or longing.

Perception of diversity means the 5 senses. If perception of diversity is a hindrance then it follows that within the experience of Jhāna there is no experience of the 5 senses, meaning there is 1 attention of perception which must be mental in nature.

Diversity of perception might mean the five senses - saññānānatta - as per SN 14.7. But that appears to be different from the perception of diversity - nānattasaññā as quoted above. Perception of diversity is what single-pointed concentration replaces, of course, but it doesn't follow that there is no experience of the body in jhāna. The point of the simile of the bath powder seems to be exactly that: a unified experience that is not of diversity, the same all the way through, and completely occupying attention.

AN 9.34 repeats the same for all of the attainments, so it's not just about diverse kāma

Yes, the issue there is not that of diversity, but the fact that it is kāma. That's incompatible with jhāna, I think.

so you would read the similes then as referring to states outside of the actual attainment then?

I would think that they are descriptions of the jhānas, but again, the main thing is to find out for oneself; I'm not personally interested in categorising other peoples' or my own future experiences.

What really is being asked is if there is awareness of the body whilst in Jhāna, or if it's pure absorption. If it is pure absorption, and if these similes are about the actual experience of Jhāna as opposed to what happens just after it, then "body" here cannot mean the physical body.

I'm not sure what is meant here by "pure" absorption. Without content, without thinking about anything else, or some other state? The "pure" bit might be a retrospective reading, as the term "parisuddha" only gets wheeled out in the 4th jhāna, and even then as an adjective describing part of the simile rather than the state itself.

[Ceisiwr]

[I'm not sure what is meant here by "pure" absorption

I’ll reply to the rest at some point, but what I meant here is non-dualism.

[Sam Vara]

[I'm not sure what is meant here by "pure" absorption

I’ll reply to the rest at some point, but what I meant here is non-dualism.

I'm never sure what people mean by that, but I look forward to your explanation! Thanks for an interesting exchange so far.

[arkaprava]

Now, if one is to produce the divine eye, these [lesser] defilements are to be abandoned:
uncertainty, inattention, sloth and torpor, fear, exhilaration, grossness, overexertion, overly sluggish
exertion, longing, perceptions of diversity, and excessive reflection on forms.If any one of these
[lesser] defilements manifests during the production of the divine eye, his concentration falls away. If
concentration falls away, light and vision of objects also disappear.Therefore these [lesser]
defilements should be well abandoned.

The meditator, [by] entirely transcending perceptions of matter, [by] the disappearance of the
perceptions of impact, not attending to perceptions of diversity, [thinking, ‘Boundless is space,’] dwells
having entered upon the base of boundless space.”
“Entirely” means without remainder.
“By transcending perceptions of matter”: What are “perceptions of matter”? The perception, the
perceiving, the state of having perceived of one who has entered upon concentration of the material
realm—these are called perceptions of matter.

“Transcending” means the emerging from these [perceptions of matter].
“By the disappearance of the perceptions of impact”: What are the perceptions of impact? The
perceptions of visible objects, of sounds, of odours, of flavours, and of tangibles—these are called the
perceptions of impact. “Disappearance” means the ending of these perceptions [of impact-].

“Not attending to perceptions of diversity”: What are perceptions of diversity? The perception, the
perceiving, the state of having perceived of one who has not attained to concentration and who is
endowed with the mind element and the mind-consciousness element—these are called perceptions of
diversity. One does not attend to these perceptions of diversity therefore this is called not attending to perceptions of diversity.

Again, “entirely transcending perceptions of matter” is taught as the attainment of the immaterial
realm.
Because these [perceptions] are abandoned herein, the immaterial attainments are [said to be]
imperturbable formations and perceptions and are peaceful liberations (santá vimokkhá).

“Not attending to perceptions of diversity” is taught as the abandoning of the inner disturbances to
that attainment and the manifestation of the peaceful liberations. - Vimuttimagga

[Ceisiwr]

[I'm not sure what is meant here by "pure" absorption

I’ll reply to the rest at some point, but what I meant here is non-dualism.

I'm never sure what people mean by that, but I look forward to your explanation! Thanks for an interesting exchange so far.

1 perception only. Becoming one with the object of meditation, which means there is no more “you” there nor any sense of anything else (5 senses), temporarily.

“One person perceives the air kasiṇa above, below, across, non-dual (advayaṁ), measureless.”

Thanks for an interesting exchange so far

Same to you. It’s nice not to have barrages of moronic sarcasm.

[Modus.Ponens]

I’ll reply to the rest at some point, but what I meant here is non-dualism.

I'm never sure what people mean by that, but I look forward to your explanation! Thanks for an interesting exchange so far.

1 perception only. Becoming one with the object of meditation, which means there is no more “you” there nor any sense of anything else (5 senses), temporarily.

“One person perceives the air kasiṇa above, below, across, non-dual (advayaṁ), measureless.”

Thanks for an interesting exchange so far

Same to you. It’s nice not to have barrages of moronic sarcasm.

I'm not being hostile to you, Ceisiwr. I'm sorry if I came across that way.

I mostly agree with what Sam Vara said in reply to your post. I'm also short on time until the next weekend, and I'll try to add something then, if still relevant.

[arkaprava]

Lights and forms in the Hindu tradition :

FORMS IN THE LIGHTS

You will see two kinds of forms (1) lustrous forms of Devatas, (2) physical forms. You will see your Ishta Devata or tutelary deity (guiding Devata) in handsome dress and with various, valuable ornaments, flowers, garlands, with four hands and weapons. Siddhas, Rishis, etc., appear to encourage you. You will find a huge collection of Devatas and celestial ladies with various musical instruments in their hands. You will see beautiful flower-gardens, fine palatial buildings, rivers, mountains, golden temples, sceneries so lovely and picturesque as cannot be adequately described.

DAZZLING LIGHTS

Sometimes, during meditation, you will get very powerful, dazzling lights, bigger than the sun. They are white. In the beginning, they come and fade away quickly. Later on, they are steady, they become fixed for 10 or 15 minutes or half an hour according to the strength and degree of concentration. For those who concentrate on the Trikuti, the space between the two eyebrows, the light appears in the forehead in the Trikuti, while for others who concentrate on the top of the head, Sahasrara Chakra, the light manifests on the top of the head. The light is so powerful and dazzling sometimes, that you have to withdraw yourself from looking at it and break the meditation. Some people are afraid and do not know what to do and how to proceed further. They come to me for instructions. I tell them that this is a new sensation which they have not hitherto experienced. By constant practice, the mind engaged in concentration will be used to it, and the fear will vanish. I ask them to go on with the practice. Some people concentrate on the heart, some on Trikuti, and some on the top of the head. It is a question of personal taste. It is easy to control mind by concentrating on the Trikuti. If you are used to fix on the Trikuti, stick to it always. Do not make frequent changes. Steadiness is very necessary. The beings and objects with whom you are in touch during the early period of meditation belong to the astral world. They are similar to human beings minus a physical overcoat. They have desires, cravings, love, hatred, etc., just as human beings have. They have fine bodies. They can move about freely. They have powers of materialisation, dematerialisation, multiplying, clairvoyant vision of an inferior order. The lustrous forms are higher Devatas of mental or higher planes who come down to give you Darshan, and encourage you. Various Saktis manifest in lustrous forms. Adore them. Worship them. Do mental Puja as soon as they give you Darshan. Angels are beings of mental or higher planes. They also appear before your mind's eye.

Sometimes, you will feel an invisible help, possibly from your Ishta Devata when you are actually pushed from the physical body into the new plane. That invisible power assists in your separating from the body and going above body-consciousness. You will have to mark carefully all these operations.

Do not waste your time in looking at these visions. This is only a curiosity. These are all encouragements to convince you of the existence of superphysical, metaphysical realities and the solid existence of Brahman. Drive these pictures. Fix yourself on the goal-Lakshya. Advance. Proceed seriously and energetically.

As soon as you retire for sleep, these lights manifest themselves without any exertion on your part. Just when you are going to transcend the physical consciousness, just when you are drowsy, these lights appear without your effort. Also in the morning, before you get up, in the transitional stage, half-asleep, half-awake, you will get again these lights by themselves without attempt.

Sometimes, during meditation, you will see an infinite blue sky, ethereal space. You will see yourself in the blue space as a black dot. Your form will appear in the centre of the light sometimes. Sometimes, you will notice highly vibratory, rotating particles in the light. You will see physical forms, human forms, children, women, adult males, Rishis with beards, Siddhas and lustrous Tejomaya forms. Visions are either subjective or objective, your own mental reactions or of realities on finer planes of matter. Universe consists of planes of matter of various grades of density. Rhythmical vibrations of Tanmatras in various degrees, give rise to the formation of various planes. Each plane has its things and beings. Visions may be of these things or beings. They may be purely imaginary. They may be crystalisation of your own intense thinking. You must discriminate in Yogic practices. Reason and common-sense must be used throughout.- Concentration and Meditation by Swami Sivananda

You will have to pass through six stages of meditation and finally you will enter into perfect Nirvikalpa Samadhi or superconscious State. Form-perception and reflex-perception will totally vanish. There is neither meditation nor the meditated now. The meditator and the meditated have become one. You will attain now the highest knowledge, eternal and supreme peace. This is the aim of existence. This is the final beatitude of life. You are an established sage or an illumined Jivanmukta now. You are liberated while living. Hence you are called a Jivanmukta. You are absolutely free from pain, sorrow, fear, doubt and delusion. You have become identical with Brahman. The bubble has become the ocean. The river has joined the ocean, and has become the ocean. All differences and distractions will totally vanish. You will experience "I am the Immortal Self. All indeed is Brahman. There is nothing but Brahman."

In the beginning of meditation lights of various colours, such as red, white, blue, green, a mixture of red and green light, etc., appear in the forehead. They are Tanmatric lights. Every Tattva has its own hue. Prithvi Tattva has yellow colour. Apas has white colour. Agni has red colour. Vayu has green colour. Akasa has blue colour. The coloured lights are due to these Tattvas.

Sometimes a big sun or moon or lightning-like flashes appear in front of the forehead during meditation. Do not mind these appearances. Shun them. Try to dive deep into the source of these lights.

Sometimes Devatas, Rishis, Nitya Siddhas will appear in meditation. Receive them with honour. Bow to them. Get advice from them. They appear before you to help and give you encouragement.

When there is one Vritti alone, you will get Savikalpa Samadhi. When this one Vritti also dies, you will get Nirvikalpa Samadhi.

[Ceisiwr]

I'm not being hostile to you, Ceisiwr. I'm sorry if I came across that way.

I mostly agree with what Sam Vara said in reply to your post. I'm also short on time until the next weekend, and I'll try to add something then, if still relevant.

I didn’t have you in mind.