Intensive Samadhi Practice

[Spiny Norman]

It's probably even more than 8 hours. The dhamma-viharin sutta says most of the day, and there are many suttas that say you should do walking meditation during different phases of the night. So a monk probably spent only 3-5 hours sleeping. So that's around 20 waking hours in a day, and the majority of that day spent in jhanas, so it's way more than 8 hours for the monks in the Buddha's time.

Also, it's not 8 hours as a necessary condition, it's 24/7 hours of mindfulness as a necessary condition.

We're not talking about the Buddha time.

The comment I quoted is talking about the suttas, which is in the Buddha's time. See the quote.

Speculating about people did in the Buddha's time is not much use to the OP.

[Tennok]

Thanissaro methods are not based in "letting go" ("vossagga"), as the Lord Buddha taught.

Not really. His main theme is being aware of becoming and craving, the hunger to be something, including very subtle states. So in order to meditate like Ven. Thanissaro teaches, you need vossagga, too. He just frazes it differently.

[un8-]

We're not talking about the Buddha time.

The comment I quoted is talking about the suttas, which is in the Buddha's time. See the quote.

Speculating about people did in the Buddha's time is not much use to the OP.

I wouldn't know, I'm not a mind reader. But I would imagine op having to sort through messages of someone trying to moderate others to be less beneficial than discussing practice during the Buddha's time.

[Spiny Norman]

The comment I quoted is talking about the suttas, which is in the Buddha's time. See the quote.

Speculating about people did in the Buddha's time is not much use to the OP.

I wouldn't know, I'm not a mind reader. But I would imagine op having to sort through messages of someone trying to moderate others to be less beneficial than discussing practice during the Buddha's time.

[un8-]

Thanissaro methods are not based in "letting go" ("vossagga"), as the Lord Buddha taught.

Not really. His main theme is being aware of becoming and craving, the hunger to be something, including very subtle states. So in order to meditate like Ven. Thanissaro teaches, you need vossagga, too. He just frazes it differently.

Isn't letting go something that happens as a consequence of dispassion, and not something you actually do?

e.g. you naturally let go of a hot pan once you see it as painful, like you would when realizing the drawbacks of sensual desires and the remaining hindrances.

So the actual practice is mindfulness and contemplating the drawbacks, not letting go, as far as I understand it.

[DooDoot]

Not really. His main theme is being aware of becoming and craving, the hunger to be something, including very subtle states. So in order to meditate like Ven. Thanissaro teaches, you need vossagga, too. He just frazes it differently.

Please quote. Thanks

Note: any valid quote is for the benefit of C&E, who posted Thanissaro's yogic energy meditation.

[DooDoot]

Isn't letting go something that happens as a consequence of dispassion, and not something you actually do?

Its both. Once dispassion takes effect, the mind also learns how to volitionally let go because letting go is a movement of the mind and, by experiencing this, the mind learns how to do this movement willfully.

For example, when you learn to not crave unwholesome things due to seeing their danger; this ability to not crave is used in meditation to not crave the breath.

Its like learning to say "no". When a sexy lady propositions you for sex, you say "no". If you can do this then saying "no" to seductive things in meditation is also easy because you already learned how to say "no".

[un8-]

Isn't letting go something that happens as a consequence of dispassion, and not something you actually do?

...

Ok I see, thank you for the explanation. So should one start with the easiest thing to say "no" to, and gradually build up? What would that be for someone who maintains the 5 precepts but still indulges in sensual desires. I'm guessing starting celibacy or eating less, but even those two things are hard to pull off, for me anyway.

[arkaprava]

You can ask your question here :
http://www.forestdhammatalks.org/en/contact.php

Ajahn Martin is a student of Ajahn Maha Boowa , since you are practicing in this style, he'd be the best person to give you advice.

[Tennok]

Not really. His main theme is being aware of becoming and craving, the hunger to be something, including very subtle states. So in order to meditate like Ven. Thanissaro teaches, you need vossagga, too. He just frazes it differently.

Please quote. Thanks

Note: any valid quote is for the benefit of C&E, who posted Thanissaro's yogic energy meditation.

Here you go. It 's from his book "With each and every breath", page 114. He doesn't speak about vossagga directly, but shows how all the states of mind and body, even those most profound and subtle, must be not clinged to. Becouse everything except of Nibbana is dukkha.

This is why jhana is so useful in giving rise to the insight that totally ends the
unnecessary stress that the mind creates through its own fabrications. Jhana gives
you a still vantage point for watching those fabrications in action.
You can do this in any of three ways:
• while you’re in a particular stage of jhana;
• when you move from one stage to another; or
• when you come out of concentration and observe what fabrications the mind
takes up as itengages with the world outside.
In any of these situations, you can observe that (1) fabrications are actually
actions, arising and passing away; (2) they’re creating stress; (3) what they’re doing
is unnecessary; and (4) the pleasure they give isn’t worth the stress they entail.
Only when you see all four of these aspects can insight lead to release from
unnecessary suffering and stress. And that’s when you see that the only stress
weighing down the mind was the unnecessary sort. Once that stress is gone,
nothing at all can weigh the mind down. It’s free.
To watch any of the jhanas as forms of mental action requires not seeing them
as metaphysical principles—say, as a Ground of Being, a True Self, Cosmic
Oneness, Primordial Emptiness, Encounter with God, or any other grandsounding abstraction. The metaphysical trap is an easy one to fall into,especially if
you’ve primed yourself to think in those terms. If, for instance, you’ve been
thinking in metaphysical terms and then attain the oneness of the second jhana, it’s
easy to assume that you’ve touched Cosmic Oneness or Interconnection. If you
attain the sense of infinite knowing of the dimension of the infinitude of
consciousness, it’seasy to assume that you’ve gained access to a level of awareness
underlying all reality. You might interpret these experiences as contact with some
sort of ground from which all things come and to which they all return. Or you
might decide that the strengthened sense of “observer” in that state of mind is your
True Self. If you fall for any of these interpretations, though, you lose sight of the
way in which your actions fashioned the experience to begin with. That way you
miss the subtle levels of stress still present in those experiences. The exalted
interpretations you assign to them blind you to the fabrications they still contain.

[DooDoot]

Here you go. It 's from his book "With each and every breath", page 114. He doesn't speak about vossagga directly, but shows how all the states of mind and body, even those most profound and subtle, must be not clinged to.

Sorry but vossagga does not mean to not cling to states of mind. "Vossagga" itself is a state of mind that for newbies is best described as "surrender".

That way you miss the subtle levels of stress still present in those experiences. The exalted interpretations you assign to them blind you to the fabrications they still contain.

Lol - the above papanca is not related to vossagga. Thanissaro is attempting to fabricate a teaching about not fabricating about jhana. But Thanissaro implicitly assumes jhana has already been reached. Since vossagga is a means for reaching jhana, vossagga is not what Thanissaro is attempting to fabricate.

[Cause_and_Effect]

It 's from his book "With each and every breath", page 114. He doesn't speak about vossagga directly, but shows how all the states of mind and body, even those most profound and subtle, must be not clinged to. Becouse everything except of Nibbana is dukkha.

This is why jhana is so useful in giving rise to the insight that totally ends the
unnecessary stress that the mind creates through its own fabrications. Jhana gives
you a still vantage point for watching those fabrications in action.
You can do this in any of three ways:
• while you’re in a particular stage of jhana;
• when you move from one stage to another; or
• when you come out of concentration and observe what fabrications the mind
takes up as itengages with the world outside.
In any of these situations, you can observe that (1) fabrications are actually
actions, arising and passing away; (2) they’re creating stress; (3) what they’re doing
is unnecessary; and (4) the pleasure they give isn’t worth the stress they entail.
Only when you see all four of these aspects can insight lead to release from
unnecessary suffering and stress. And that’s when you see that the only stress
weighing down the mind was the unnecessary sort. Once that stress is gone,
nothing at all can weigh the mind down. It’s free.
To watch any of the jhanas as forms of mental action requires not seeing them
as metaphysical principles—say, as a Ground of Being, a True Self, Cosmic
Oneness, Primordial Emptiness, Encounter with God, or any other grandsounding abstraction. The metaphysical trap is an easy one to fall into,especially if
you’ve primed yourself to think in those terms. If, for instance, you’ve been
thinking in metaphysical terms and then attain the oneness of the second jhana, it’s
easy to assume that you’ve touched Cosmic Oneness or Interconnection. If you
attain the sense of infinite knowing of the dimension of the infinitude of
consciousness, it’seasy to assume that you’ve gained access to a level of awareness
underlying all reality. You might interpret these experiences as contact with some
sort of ground from which all things come and to which they all return. Or you
might decide that the strengthened sense of “observer” in that state of mind is your
True Self. If you fall for any of these interpretations, though, you lose sight of the
way in which your actions fashioned the experience to begin with. That way you
miss the subtle levels of stress still present in those experiences. The exalted
interpretations you assign to them blind you to the fabrications they still contain.

[Tennok]

Lol - the above papanca is not related to vossagga. Thanissaro is attempting to fabricate a teaching about not fabricating about jhana. But Thanissaro implicitly assumes jhana has already been reached. Since vossagga is a means for reaching jhana, vossagga is not what Thanissaro is attempting to fabricate.

If Vossagga means "to let go", than it is the opposite of "Clinging". And Thanissaro writes about dealing with clinging...thus act of Vossagga. I gave you one quotation, but Thanissaro writes about it everywhere...about relinquishment of all forms of bhavana, even the most alluring and subtle.

And do you have any proof, that Vossaga refers only to the jhana practice, not a general attitude, toward all possible states of body and mind?

I thought that after one emerges from jhana, then vossagga would be even stronger...And thats how the final insight occurs.

Remindless Relinquishment, as Ven. Buddhadasa wrote.

Are you saying, that jhana is the final achievment on the Noble8 ?

Please give the quote. Thanx.

[DooDoot]

...

Dude, u never give up.... like George Forman vs Muhamad Ali in the Rumble in The Jungle.

If Vossagga means "to let go"

Sorry but vossagga means "relaxation; surrender; relinquishing; giving up; handing over", per the dictionary. It is what the mystics refer to as "surrendering to god". Similarly, in Dhamma, it is surrendering to the stream. That's enough.

[Tennok]

...

Dude, u never give up.... like George Forman vs Muhamad Ali in the Rumble in The Jungle.

If Vossagga means "to let go"

Sorry but vossagga means "relaxation; surrender; relinquishing; giving up; handing over", per the dictionary. It is what the mystics refer to as "surrendering to god". Similarly, in Dhamma, it is surrendering to the stream. That's enough.

But Ali won this fight, didn't he? Someone must win! So get up...Fight me! Fight me!

Just kidding. You are right. That's enough. Two grown up men, both consider themselves Buddhists, boxing endlessly about the meaning of "let go", "relaxation" and "surrender"...that's hilarious.