Dear reader,
I am practicing in line with Than Ajahn Maha Boowa's Thai Forest Tradition and my situation is a little bit desperate, I thought you'd have the compassion to give me some advice.
I have been practicing intense samadhi meditation for 4 months now and I can get very calm during the session, which may last up to 3 hours. I meditate for about 8 hours a day, and it seems that after my sessions are finished, all thoughts, emotions and cravings can be more easily triggered and difficult to deal with. It is contradictory but samtha meditation is indeed making my life much harder.
Whenever i am not in meditation, I feel like anything can trigger an obsession or an intense emotion. Also, there seems to be much less consistency to my thoughts: one day I have this opinion only to have the complete opposite opinion on the next day. This makes making decisions a real struggle and life is becoming much harder.
Many thanks in advance
Intensive Samadhi Practice
Re: Intensive Samadhi Practice
KupaMalandrin wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 2:34 pm Dear reader,
I am practicing in line with Than Ajahn Maha Boowa's Thai Forest Tradition and my situation is a little bit desperate, I thought you'd have the compassion to give me some advice.
I have been practicing intense samadhi meditation for 4 months now and I can get very calm during the session, which may last up to 3 hours. I meditate for about 8 hours a day, and it seems that after my sessions are finished, all thoughts, emotions and cravings can be more easily triggered and difficult to deal with. It is contradictory but samtha meditation is indeed making my life much harder.
Whenever i am not in meditation, I feel like anything can trigger an obsession or an intense emotion. Also, there seems to be much less consistency to my thoughts: one day I have this opinion only to have the complete opposite opinion on the next day. This makes making decisions a real struggle and life is becoming much harder.
Many thanks in advance
Hi KupaMalandrin,
Do you regularly attend guided meditation sessions, or teachings at a specific Forest Tradition Monastery where you can receive advice about your practice? If not, I suggest you meditate for periods of no more than about I hour at a time and then relax for a while and don't worry too much!
There are lots of resources on the website of Amaravati Monastery UK which you might find helpful:
https://amaravati.org/
With metta,
Aloka
.
Re: Intensive Samadhi Practice
I think it's best to talk in person or over the phone to an experienced teacher in your tradition.
Internet forums are great for getting suggestions on some matters, but for serious meditation issues you don't want to rely on it.
Internet forums are great for getting suggestions on some matters, but for serious meditation issues you don't want to rely on it.
KupaMalandrin wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 2:34 pm Dear reader,
I am practicing in line with Than Ajahn Maha Boowa's Thai Forest Tradition and my situation is a little bit desperate, I thought you'd have the compassion to give me some advice.
I have been practicing intense samadhi meditation for 4 months now and I can get very calm during the session, which may last up to 3 hours. I meditate for about 8 hours a day, and it seems that after my sessions are finished, all thoughts, emotions and cravings can be more easily triggered and difficult to deal with. It is contradictory but samtha meditation is indeed making my life much harder.
Whenever i am not in meditation, I feel like anything can trigger an obsession or an intense emotion. Also, there seems to be much less consistency to my thoughts: one day I have this opinion only to have the complete opposite opinion on the next day. This makes making decisions a real struggle and life is becoming much harder.
Many thanks in advance
www.lucid24.org/sted : ☸Lucid24.org STED definitions
www.audtip.org/audtip: Audio Tales in Pāli: ☸Dharma and Vinaya in many languages
www.audtip.org/audtip: Audio Tales in Pāli: ☸Dharma and Vinaya in many languages
Re: Intensive Samadhi Practice
Concentrated mind pick easily up objects, and if they are unwholesome they can create problems.
I don't know if you practice 8 precepts, but with samādhi practice you should, it will protect your mind from unwholesome sense objects.
I don't know how long you are doing your practice now, but before starting intensive practices it is good to protect your mind with 8 precepts for some weeks or mounth before that, in order to pacify and clean it...
Also try to develop wisdom and do not identify with your thoughts, memories, emotions and all phenomenas that can arise, they are not you, yours, your self... Be patient with them... they change a lot... don't jump into them, take some wise distance...
If we take simile of a car:
- cleanness of the road, absence of wind and rain - its a Sila, your 8 precepts
- Samadhi it's a speed of the car, and if the road is not clean or weather is bad - the car will suffer a lot, and maybe even break of go out of the road... very dangerous !
- Panna - is the ability of the car to fly over all obstacles by taking some distance with mental and bodily phenomenas, by seeing them as they are - impermanent, unsatisfactory, ownerless things - the wind will not be absorbed in them, pulled by them, pushed by them, conditioned by them...
Try to bring more space in your mind, make it spacious, in order to feel space between mind and objects... Patient endurance can provide some space...
May be you know all this already. Iam not a teacher, just some compassionate suggestions that can help... take care of your mind, be patient, we can't rush the path... steady practice every day for a long time is better than hight intensity short period... even if you run very fast around the tree -it will not give you fruits faster...
Imho
I don't know if you practice 8 precepts, but with samādhi practice you should, it will protect your mind from unwholesome sense objects.
I don't know how long you are doing your practice now, but before starting intensive practices it is good to protect your mind with 8 precepts for some weeks or mounth before that, in order to pacify and clean it...
Also try to develop wisdom and do not identify with your thoughts, memories, emotions and all phenomenas that can arise, they are not you, yours, your self... Be patient with them... they change a lot... don't jump into them, take some wise distance...
If we take simile of a car:
- cleanness of the road, absence of wind and rain - its a Sila, your 8 precepts
- Samadhi it's a speed of the car, and if the road is not clean or weather is bad - the car will suffer a lot, and maybe even break of go out of the road... very dangerous !
- Panna - is the ability of the car to fly over all obstacles by taking some distance with mental and bodily phenomenas, by seeing them as they are - impermanent, unsatisfactory, ownerless things - the wind will not be absorbed in them, pulled by them, pushed by them, conditioned by them...
Try to bring more space in your mind, make it spacious, in order to feel space between mind and objects... Patient endurance can provide some space...
May be you know all this already. Iam not a teacher, just some compassionate suggestions that can help... take care of your mind, be patient, we can't rush the path... steady practice every day for a long time is better than hight intensity short period... even if you run very fast around the tree -it will not give you fruits faster...
Imho
We don't live Samsara, Samsara is living us...
"Form, feelings, perceptions, formations, consciousness - don't care about us, we don't exist for them"
"Form, feelings, perceptions, formations, consciousness - don't care about us, we don't exist for them"
Re: Intensive Samadhi Practice
There is Right Concentration and wrong concentration, as explained by Ajahn Buddhadasa, as follows:KupaMalandrin wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 2:34 pm I have been practicing intense samadhi meditation for 4 months now and I can get very calm during the session, which may last up to 3 hours. I meditate for about 8 hours a day, and it seems that after my sessions are finished, all thoughts, emotions and cravings can be more easily triggered and difficult to deal with. It is contradictory but samtha meditation is indeed making my life much harder.
The above is totally supported by the Pali Suttas, where SN 48.10, MN 117 & the end of MN 118 all say concentration (samadhi) is developed by making "letting go/relinquishment" ("vossagga") the meditation object, which, in other words, is the Right View of abandoning craving, per the 2nd & 3rd Noble Truths.As for samadhi, an empty mind is the supreme samadhi, the supremely focused firmness of mind. The straining and striving sort of samadhi isn't the real thing and the samadhi which aims at anything other than non-clinging to the five khandas is micchasamadhi (wrong or perverted samadhi). You should be aware that there is both micchasamadhi and sammasamadhi (right or correct samadhi). Only the mind that is empty of grasping at and clinging to 'I' and 'mine' can have the true and perfect stability of sammasamadhi. One who has an empty mind has correct samadhi.
https://www.dhammatalks.net/Books/Bhikk ... o_Tree.htm
In your case, it appears what you called "samadhi" is a type of forceful suppression of the mind, which is type of craving, i.e., craving not to be (vibhava tanha).
If Right Concentration was actually developed, the mind would become highly skilled in letting go, therefore would have few problems when emerging from concentration.
Kind regards
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.
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Re: Intensive Samadhi Practice
No need to do 8 hours a day. 2-3 hours sitting is enough.KupaMalandrin wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 2:34 pm Dear reader,
I am practicing in line with Than Ajahn Maha Boowa's Thai Forest Tradition and my situation is a little bit desperate, I thought you'd have the compassion to give me some advice.
I have been practicing intense samadhi meditation for 4 months now and I can get very calm during the session, which may last up to 3 hours. I meditate for about 8 hours a day, and it seems that after my sessions are finished, all thoughts, emotions and cravings can be more easily triggered and difficult to deal with. It is contradictory but samtha meditation is indeed making my life much harder.
Whenever i am not in meditation, I feel like anything can trigger an obsession or an intense emotion. Also, there seems to be much less consistency to my thoughts: one day I have this opinion only to have the complete opposite opinion on the next day. This makes making decisions a real struggle and life is becoming much harder.
Many thanks in advance
It sounds like you are trying to avoid something by jumping into the meditation which is called spiritual bypassing.
Article here
https://www.dailygood.org/more.php?n=8483
So be aware of this and what may be behind the excessive meditation.
I would say also focus on bringing your meditation and awareness more into daily life.
It doesn't happen automatically.
Since you are of the Forrest tradition you may find this talk helpful.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...
That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."
(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."
(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
Re: Intensive Samadhi Practice
Real jhana requires 8 hours a day.Cause_and_Effect wrote: ↑Thu Aug 26, 2021 1:41 am No need to do 8 hours a day. 2-3 hours sitting is enough.
The Forest Tradition is not a specific doctrine of practise. It merely is about living in the forest. In other words, listening to Thanissaro is not universal to the Forest Tradition. In fact, Thanissaro would set the OP onto a similar method they are currently engaged in.Cause_and_Effect wrote: ↑Thu Aug 26, 2021 1:41 amSince you are of the Forrest tradition you may find this talk helpful.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.
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Re: Intensive Samadhi Practice
Seriously... don't take advice from the forum (except this )... find a monk/teacher who is experienced in your type of practice and who you respect.KupaMalandrin wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 2:34 pm Dear reader,
I am practicing in line with Than Ajahn Maha Boowa's Thai Forest Tradition and my situation is a little bit desperate, I thought you'd have the compassion to give me some advice.
I have been practicing intense samadhi meditation for 4 months now and I can get very calm during the session, which may last up to 3 hours. I meditate for about 8 hours a day, and it seems that after my sessions are finished, all thoughts, emotions and cravings can be more easily triggered and difficult to deal with. It is contradictory but samtha meditation is indeed making my life much harder.
Whenever i am not in meditation, I feel like anything can trigger an obsession or an intense emotion. Also, there seems to be much less consistency to my thoughts: one day I have this opinion only to have the complete opposite opinion on the next day. This makes making decisions a real struggle and life is becoming much harder.
Many thanks in advance
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Re: Intensive Samadhi Practice
You want free advice? Don't get over charged by people greedy to make money off the dhamma!
Look secondly, many advanced practioners do 40 day meditations with 10 hours of meditation a day. See goenka.
Third, ajahn chah says don't push yourself too hard you will go crazy. See his collected teachings.
Fourth, if you had perfect harmony you would be enlightened, or maybe life would still be the three marks of existence? Anatta (non self), dukkhu (suffering), and impermanence.... What do you think?
Fifth, ajahn chah again says use your own answers not other people's answers because for one they are probably not enlightenmened and two how could you enlighten just by learning knowledge? What do you think?
Look secondly, many advanced practioners do 40 day meditations with 10 hours of meditation a day. See goenka.
Third, ajahn chah says don't push yourself too hard you will go crazy. See his collected teachings.
Fourth, if you had perfect harmony you would be enlightened, or maybe life would still be the three marks of existence? Anatta (non self), dukkhu (suffering), and impermanence.... What do you think?
Fifth, ajahn chah again says use your own answers not other people's answers because for one they are probably not enlightenmened and two how could you enlighten just by learning knowledge? What do you think?
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Re: Intensive Samadhi Practice
This is a well known problem. Go to your teacher and tell what is happening. They will give you a solution.KupaMalandrin wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 2:34 pm ..., and it seems that after my sessions are finished, all thoughts, emotions and cravings can be more easily triggered and difficult to deal with. It is contradictory but samtha meditation is indeed making my life much harder.
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Re: Intensive Samadhi Practice
The Four Protective Meditations
Offering Protection from Unwholesome Dispositions
By Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi (Tricycle Magazine Article)
https://tricycle.org/magazine/four-prot ... ditations/
Four protective meditations
Integrate the protective meditations
Offering Protection from Unwholesome Dispositions
By Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi (Tricycle Magazine Article)
https://tricycle.org/magazine/four-prot ... ditations/
Four protective meditations
- the recollection of the Buddha,
the meditation on lovingkindness,
contemplation of the nature of the body,
mindfulness of death.
Integrate the protective meditations
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
- Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
V. Nanananda
𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
- Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
V. Buddhādasa
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Re: Intensive Samadhi Practice
I don't think you know much about jhana.
And your opinion is based on?
Forrest tradition refers to the Thai Forrest Tradition which Maha Boowa and Thanisarro Bhikkhu are both part of.DooDoot wrote: ↑Thu Aug 26, 2021 1:50 am
The Forest Tradition is not a specific doctrine of practise. It merely is about living in the forest. In other words, listening to Thanissaro is not universal to the Forest Tradition. In fact, Thanissaro would set the OP onto a similar method they are currently engaged in.
And no, Thanissaro would almost certainly not direct him to keep doing what he is doing.
Post edited by moderator to remove ad hominem content.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...
That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."
(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."
(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
Re: Intensive Samadhi Practice
Sorry but my opinion was correct. For example, in the suttas, did the Buddha practise for 2 hours per day, as you suggested? The suttas say:Cause_and_Effect wrote: ↑Thu Aug 26, 2021 7:07 am I don't think you know much about jhana.
And your opinion is based on?
Generally, the above refers to keeping vigil for two of three watches, as follows:157. If one holds oneself dear, one should diligently watch oneself. Let the wise man keep vigil during any of the three watches of the night.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .budd.html
The above amounts to 8 hours per day, exactly as i correctly posted."And how is the disciple of the noble ones devoted to wakefulness? There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones, sitting & pacing back & forth, cleanses his mind of any qualities that would hold the mind in check. During the first watch of the night [dusk to 10 p.m.], sitting & pacing back & forth, he cleanses his mind of any qualities that would hold the mind in check. During the second watch of the night [10 p.m. to 2 a.m.], reclining on his right side, he takes up the lion's posture, one foot placed on top of the other, mindful, alert, with his mind set on getting up [either as soon as he awakens or at a particular time]. During the last watch of the night [2 a.m. to dawn], sitting & pacing back & forth, he cleanses his mind of any qualities that would hold the mind in check. This is how the monk is devoted to wakefulness.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Thanissaro appears to often teach Hindu style yogic practises. The Buddha taught jhana is reached by making "letting go" the meditation object. SN 48.10. Thanissaro does not teach this. Thanissaro teaches to generate energy within the body, which is similar to 'hatha yoga'. The Buddha taught:Cause_and_Effect wrote: ↑Thu Aug 26, 2021 7:07 amForrest tradition refers to the Thai Forrest Tradition which Maha Boowa and Thanisarro Bhikkhu are both part of. And no, Thanissaro would almost certainly not direct him to keep doing what he is doing.Don't misrepresent people with things you nothing about.
"And what is the faculty of concentration? There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, making it his object to let go, attains concentration, attains singleness of mind. Quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, he enters & remains in the first jhana
SN 48.10
Thanissaro appears to have misunderstand the metaphor in MN 119 about the soap ball, Ajahn Brahm explained this correctly in his Jhana Book. "Kaya" in MN 119 refers to the mental body per Ajahn Brahm and not the physical body per Thanissaro Bhikkhu."And how are the seven factors for awakening developed & pursued so as to bring clear knowing & release to their culmination? There is the case where a monk develops mindfulness as a factor for awakening dependent on seclusion, dependent on dispassion, dependent on cessation, resulting in relinquishment. He develops analysis of qualities as a factor for awakening... persistence as a factor for awakening... rapture as a factor for awakening... serenity as a factor for awakening... concentration as a factor for awakening... equanimity as a factor for awakening dependent on seclusion, dependent on dispassion, dependent on cessation, resulting in relinquishment.
MN 118
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.
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Re: Intensive Samadhi Practice
So let's see now.
The original OP was about someone having mental or emotional problems, and doing a high amount of meditation.
My post was
In fact if someone is having these problems, they should not meditate so much and first understand what is happening. Cutting down from 8 hours to 2-3 hours would be advisable.
So sorry, but as usual you are wrong.
Also, your inference that because the Buddha says that monks should practice in two watches of the night means that "jhana requires 8 hours a day" is yet more pure nonsense speculation and unsupported in the Canon.
The original OP was about someone having mental or emotional problems, and doing a high amount of meditation.
My post was
So not only did you fail to understand the purpose of the thread and the question, you then gave an incorrect unsupported opinion about jhana which wasn't even the OP question.DooDoot wrote: ↑Thu Aug 26, 2021 1:50 amReal jhana requires 8 hours a day.Cause_and_Effect wrote: ↑Thu Aug 26, 2021 1:41 am No need to do 8 hours a day. 2-3 hours sitting is enough.
In fact if someone is having these problems, they should not meditate so much and first understand what is happening. Cutting down from 8 hours to 2-3 hours would be advisable.
That's an instruction for Bhikkhus. OP is not a bhikkhu, so meditating 8 hours a day is not advised.DooDoot wrote: ↑Thu Aug 26, 2021 7:31 amSorry but my opinion was correct. For example, in the suttas, did the Buddha practise for 2 hours per day, as you suggested?Cause_and_Effect wrote: ↑Thu Aug 26, 2021 7:07 am I don't think you know much about jhana.
And your opinion is based on?
The suttas say:Generally, the above refers to keeping vigil for two of three watches, as follows:157. If one holds oneself dear, one should diligently watch oneself. Let the wise man keep vigil during any of the three watches of the night.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .budd.htmlThe above amounts to 8 hours per day, exactly as i correctly posted."And how is the disciple of the noble ones devoted to wakefulness? There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones, sitting & pacing back & forth, cleanses his mind of any qualities that would hold the mind in check. During the first watch of the night [dusk to 10 p.m.], sitting & pacing back & forth, he cleanses his mind of any qualities that would hold the mind in check. During the second watch of the night [10 p.m. to 2 a.m.], reclining on his right side, he takes up the lion's posture, one foot placed on top of the other, mindful, alert, with his mind set on getting up [either as soon as he awakens or at a particular time]. During the last watch of the night [2 a.m. to dawn], sitting & pacing back & forth, he cleanses his mind of any qualities that would hold the mind in check. This is how the monk is devoted to wakefulness.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
So sorry, but as usual you are wrong.
Also, your inference that because the Buddha says that monks should practice in two watches of the night means that "jhana requires 8 hours a day" is yet more pure nonsense speculation and unsupported in the Canon.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...
That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."
(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."
(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
Re: Intensive Samadhi Practice
Wrong. The OP said: "I meditate for about 8 hours a day".Cause_and_Effect wrote: ↑Thu Aug 26, 2021 8:14 am So not only did you fail to understand the purpose of the thread and the question
Wrong. The OP referred to "samadhi", which includes "jhana". My post was about "right samadhi". My post was similar to the Buddha's post in the Sona Sutta. In the Sona Sutta, the Buddha did not post to Sona to reduce his quantity of practise. Instead, the Buddha posted to Sona to improve the "quality" or "balance" of his effort.Cause_and_Effect wrote: ↑Thu Aug 26, 2021 8:14 amyou then gave an incorrect unsupported opinion about jhana which wasn't even the OP question.
No. 2-3 hours, let alone 2-3 minutes, of wrong method is not advisableCause_and_Effect wrote: ↑Thu Aug 26, 2021 8:14 amIn fact if someone is having these problems, they should not meditate so much and first understand what is happening. Cutting down from 8 hours to 2-3 hours would be advisable.
No. When I was layman devoted to meditation, I meditated for 8 hours per day. When laypeople do meditation retreats, they generally meditate for around 8 hours for day.Cause_and_Effect wrote: ↑Thu Aug 26, 2021 8:14 amThat's an instruction for Bhikkhus. OP is not a bhikkhu, so meditating 8 hours a day is not advised. So sorry, but as usual you are wrong.
Since the Canon actually literally says to practise for at least 8 hours per day, surely what the Canon literally says is not pure nonsense speculation and unsupported in the Canon.Cause_and_Effect wrote: ↑Thu Aug 26, 2021 8:14 amAlso, your inference that because the Buddha says that monks should practice in two watches of the night means that "jhana requires 8 hours a day" is yet more pure nonsense speculation and unsupported in the Canon.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati