hindrances and jhana factors...can they coexist?

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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Tennok
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Re: hindrances and jhana factors...can they coexist?

Post by Tennok »

samseva wrote: Sun Aug 29, 2021 2:13 pm *But in such a case they would be considered mental factors rather than jhāna factors.
:namaste: .

It's a good compromise, I guess. Those factors share similar qualities, but while in jhana they are much stronger, undisturbed and purer - so they are jhana factors now, not just mental factors.

I just defended the notion, that similiar mental factors appear before the actual jhana...or even lead, or show the way to it...but they don't have to be exactly the same thing, as their greater peers, present in the jhana.

It's like a relation between two different fires.
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samseva
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Re: hindrances and jhana factors...can they coexist?

Post by samseva »

Tennok wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 4:31 am [...]
And causes and conditions are objectively important and relevant—conditionality is one of the Buddha's most important teachings.

Even if vitakka and so on can arise outside of jhāna—and that if somehow removed from their context, and observed as single conditionless entities, they are as mental factors technically the same—jhāna factors specifically arise with the jhānas as conditions.

Even if the water itself can be the very same rain water in these two cases: sewage water and drinkable bottled water are objectively different.
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DooDoot
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Re: hindrances and jhana factors...can they coexist?

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samseva wrote: Sun Aug 29, 2021 12:39 pm Ānāpānasati Sutta/MN 118 ... describes jhāna.
Ānāpānasati Sutta says rapture is experienced while knowing breathing. This appears to not be jhana but appears to be what the Commentaries called "neighbourhood concentration".
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DooDoot
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Re: hindrances and jhana factors...can they coexist?

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DooDoot wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:12 am Ānāpānasati Sutta says rapture is experienced while knowing breathing. This appears to not be jhana but appears to be what the Commentaries called "neighbourhood concentration".
To add, the suttas appear to say jhana only has five or less factors of experience. The breath is not one of these five factors. MN 43 describes the 5 factored first jhana. :ugeek:
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frank k
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Re: hindrances and jhana factors...can they coexist?

Post by frank k »

I did not read most of this thread, but you guys will probably find this sutta of interest:

KN Snp 5.1 non Buddhist doing jhana, with 5 hindrances present (while in jhana)
http://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/20 ... -with.html
www.lucid24.org/sted : ☸Lucid24.org🐘 STED definitions
www.audtip.org/audtip: 🎙️🔊Audio Tales in Pāli: ☸Dharma and Vinaya in many languages
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samseva
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Re: hindrances and jhana factors...can they coexist?

Post by samseva »

You didn't share the actual Sutta. You shared your notes on it.

https://suttacentral.net/snp5.1/en/mills
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