The Great Jhana Debate

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Ajahn Brahmavamso's Dark Jhana

Post by Ceisiwr »

coconut wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 11:43 am
Nope, MN 111 shows you can be aware of several things while in jhana, it's not that you're only aware of one thing. Many things arise and cease while in jhanas.
Apart from being a questionable sutta, as Ven. Analayo has shown Sariputta isn’t doing that whilst in Jhana. He can’t be in Jhana whilst watching those factors arise or cease, by definition. As my quotes show, backed up by DN 9, Jhana is of one perception. I would add to that absorption.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Ajahn Brahmavamso's Dark Jhana

Post by coconut »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 11:45 am
coconut wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 11:43 am
Nope, MN 111 shows you can be aware of several things while in jhana, it's not that you're only aware of one thing. Many things arise and cease while in jhanas.
Apart from being a questionable sutta, as Ven. Analayo has shown Sariputta isn’t doing that whilst in Jhana. He can’t be in Jhana whilst watching those factors arise or cease, by definition. As my quotes show, backed up by DN 9, Jhana is of one perception. I would add to that absorption.
Again and as usual, you take things out of context by misunderstanding the suttas and not reading all the suttas.

One gets rids of "perceptions of diversity" to attain the formless jhanas, not for attaining the first jhana.
Then I thought, ‘Why don’t I, going totally beyond perceptions of form, with the ending of perceptions of impingement, not focusing on perceptions of diversity, aware that “space is infinite”, enter and remain in the dimension of infinite space?’ But my mind wasn’t eager for the dimension of infinite space; it wasn’t confident, settled, and decided about it. I didn’t see it as peaceful. Then I thought, ‘What is the cause, what is the reason why my mind isn’t eager for the dimension of infinite space, and not confident, settled, and decided about it? Why don’t I see it as peaceful?’ Then I thought, ‘I haven’t seen the drawbacks of forms, and so I haven’t cultivated that. I haven’t realized the benefits of the dimension of infinite space, and so I haven’t developed that. That’s why my mind isn’t eager for the dimension of infinite space, and not confident, settled, and decided about it. And it’s why I don’t see it as peaceful.’ Then I thought, ‘Suppose that, seeing the drawbacks of forms, I were to cultivate that. And suppose that, realizing the benefits of the dimension of infinite space, I were to develop that. It’s possible that my mind would be eager for the dimension of infinite space; it would be confident, settled, and decided about it. And I would see it as peaceful.’ And so, after some time, I saw the drawbacks of forms and cultivated that, and I realized the benefits of the dimension of infinite space and developed that. Then my mind was eager for the dimension of infinite space; it was confident, settled, and decided about it. I saw it as peaceful. And so, going totally beyond perceptions of form, with the ending of perceptions of impingement, not focusing on perceptions of diversity, aware that ‘space is infinite’, I was entering and remaining in the dimension of infinite space. While I was in that meditation, perceptions and attentions accompanied by forms beset me, and that was an affliction for me. Suppose a happy person were to experience pain; that would be an affliction for them. In the same way, when perceptions and attentions accompanied by forms beset me, that was an affliction for me.
https://suttacentral.net/an9.41/en/sujato
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Re: Ajahn Brahmavamso's Dark Jhana

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To cultivate such awareness of these mental qualities arising and disappearing while being in an absorption is impossible, because the very presence of these qualities is required for there to be an absorption in the first place and for it to continue being a state of absorption.24
The formulation used in the discourse makes it clear that the passage does not intend to refer to the momentary change of mental qualities. The Anupada-sutta clearly specifies that Sāriputta observes the arising of mental qualities which “have not been, come into being”, ahutvā sambhonti, and he contem- plates their disappearance when “having been, they disappear”, hutvā paṭiventi.25 The notion of momentariness, according to which phenomena pass away on the spot at every moment, is in fact a relatively late development in Buddhist thought.26 It can safely be set aside as not forming the backdrop of the early discourses.

So when these states have not yet come into being or disap- pear, a practitioner inevitably is not yet or no longer in the ab- sorption, simply because the absorption lasts only as long as all of the mental qualities that characterize it are fully present. Therefore to observe the arising of these mental qualities and their disappearance could only happen before an absorption is attained or after the attainment has come to an end.
https://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg ... o/ebms.pdf

Anyway, I’m not really much interested in debating Jhana per se. My mind is quite made up on the subject. I would refer you to the “Great Jhana Debate” thread: https://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=4597
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Ajahn Brahmavamso's Dark Jhana

Post by coconut »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 11:51 am
To cultivate such awareness of these mental qualities arising and disappearing while being in an absorption is impossible, because the very presence of these qualities is required for there to be an absorption in the first place and for it to continue being a state of absorption.24
The formulation used in the discourse makes it clear that the passage does not intend to refer to the momentary change of mental qualities. The Anupada-sutta clearly specifies that Sāriputta observes the arising of mental qualities which “have not been, come into being”, ahutvā sambhonti, and he contem- plates their disappearance when “having been, they disappear”, hutvā paṭiventi.25 The notion of momentariness, according to which phenomena pass away on the spot at every moment, is in fact a relatively late development in Buddhist thought.26 It can safely be set aside as not forming the backdrop of the early discourses.

So when these states have not yet come into being or disap- pear, a practitioner inevitably is not yet or no longer in the ab- sorption, simply because the absorption lasts only as long as all of the mental qualities that characterize it are fully present. Therefore to observe the arising of these mental qualities and their disappearance could only happen before an absorption is attained or after the attainment has come to an end.
https://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg ... o/ebms.pdf

Anyway, I’m not really much interested in debating Jhana per se. My mind is quite made up on the subject. I would refer you to the “Great Jhana Debate” thread: https://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=4597
:strawman: :strawman: :strawman:

I don't see what the has to do with the fact that you think you need to overcome "perceptions of diversity" to attain first jhana, when I told you it's for overcoming forms and entering FORMLESS jhanas. You don't know the difference between perceptions of diversity and abyagga (non-distraction).
And how does diversity of elements give rise to diversity of perceptions, and diversity of perceptions give rise to diversity of thoughts, and diversity of thoughts give rise to diversity of desires, and diversity of desires give rise to diversity of passions, and diversity of passions give rise to diversity of searches?
- SN 14.7

Diversity of Perception is dependent on Diversity of Elements, which means it's within the domain of Forms. To leave the domain of forms you need to get rid of diversity of perception by going beyond forms.
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Re: Ajahn Brahmavamso's Dark Jhana

Post by Ceisiwr »

coconut wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 11:57 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 11:51 am
To cultivate such awareness of these mental qualities arising and disappearing while being in an absorption is impossible, because the very presence of these qualities is required for there to be an absorption in the first place and for it to continue being a state of absorption.24
The formulation used in the discourse makes it clear that the passage does not intend to refer to the momentary change of mental qualities. The Anupada-sutta clearly specifies that Sāriputta observes the arising of mental qualities which “have not been, come into being”, ahutvā sambhonti, and he contem- plates their disappearance when “having been, they disappear”, hutvā paṭiventi.25 The notion of momentariness, according to which phenomena pass away on the spot at every moment, is in fact a relatively late development in Buddhist thought.26 It can safely be set aside as not forming the backdrop of the early discourses.

So when these states have not yet come into being or disap- pear, a practitioner inevitably is not yet or no longer in the ab- sorption, simply because the absorption lasts only as long as all of the mental qualities that characterize it are fully present. Therefore to observe the arising of these mental qualities and their disappearance could only happen before an absorption is attained or after the attainment has come to an end.
https://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg ... o/ebms.pdf

Anyway, I’m not really much interested in debating Jhana per se. My mind is quite made up on the subject. I would refer you to the “Great Jhana Debate” thread: https://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=4597
:strawman: :strawman: :strawman:

I don't see what the has to do with the fact that you think you need to overcome "perceptions of diversity" to attain first jhana, when I told you it's for overcoming forms and entering FORMLESS jhanas. You don't know the difference between perceptions of diversity and abyagga (non-distraction).
And how does diversity of elements give rise to diversity of perceptions, and diversity of perceptions give rise to diversity of thoughts, and diversity of thoughts give rise to diversity of desires, and diversity of desires give rise to diversity of passions, and diversity of passions give rise to diversity of searches?
- SN 14.7

Diversity of Perception is dependent on Diversity of Elements, which means it's within the domain of Forms. To leave the domain of forms you need to get rid of diversity of perception by going beyond forms.
DN 15 has:

1st Jhana = singular perception
2nd Jhana = diverse perception
3rd Jhana = singular perception
4th Jhana = not defined.

To get to the Jhanas you absorb into 1 perception.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
coconut
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Re: Ajahn Brahmavamso's Dark Jhana

Post by coconut »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 12:03 pm
coconut wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 11:57 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 11:51 am

https://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg ... o/ebms.pdf

Anyway, I’m not really much interested in debating Jhana per se. My mind is quite made up on the subject. I would refer you to the “Great Jhana Debate” thread: https://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=4597
:strawman: :strawman: :strawman:

I don't see what the has to do with the fact that you think you need to overcome "perceptions of diversity" to attain first jhana, when I told you it's for overcoming forms and entering FORMLESS jhanas. You don't know the difference between perceptions of diversity and abyagga (non-distraction).
And how does diversity of elements give rise to diversity of perceptions, and diversity of perceptions give rise to diversity of thoughts, and diversity of thoughts give rise to diversity of desires, and diversity of desires give rise to diversity of passions, and diversity of passions give rise to diversity of searches?
- SN 14.7

Diversity of Perception is dependent on Diversity of Elements, which means it's within the domain of Forms. To leave the domain of forms you need to get rid of diversity of perception by going beyond forms.
DN 15 has:

1st Jhana = singular perception
2nd Jhana = diverse perception
3rd Jhana = singular perception
4th Jhana = not defined.

To get to the Jhanas you absorb into 1 perception.

Why are you doubling down?

From DN 15:
There are sentient beings that have gone totally beyond perceptions of form. With the ending of perceptions of impingement, not focusing on perceptions of diversity, aware that ‘space is infinite’, they have been reborn in the dimension of infinite space. This is the fifth plane of consciousness.
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Re: Ajahn Brahmavamso's Dark Jhana

Post by Ceisiwr »

coconut wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 12:07 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 12:03 pm
coconut wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 11:57 am

:strawman: :strawman: :strawman:

I don't see what the has to do with the fact that you think you need to overcome "perceptions of diversity" to attain first jhana, when I told you it's for overcoming forms and entering FORMLESS jhanas. You don't know the difference between perceptions of diversity and abyagga (non-distraction).



- SN 14.7

Diversity of Perception is dependent on Diversity of Elements, which means it's within the domain of Forms. To leave the domain of forms you need to get rid of diversity of perception by going beyond forms.
DN 15 has:

1st Jhana = singular perception
2nd Jhana = diverse perception
3rd Jhana = singular perception
4th Jhana = not defined.

To get to the Jhanas you absorb into 1 perception.

Why are you doubling down?

From DN 15:
There are sentient beings that have gone totally beyond perceptions of form. With the ending of perceptions of impingement, not focusing on perceptions of diversity, aware that ‘space is infinite’, they have been reborn in the dimension of infinite space. This is the fifth plane of consciousness.
Because I’ve heard your arguments 1000 times before by 100 different people and I’ve seen them be demolished 1000 times, which is why I’m not much interested in debating it anymore. My mind is made up and it’s too time consuming to go through it all bit by bit to show how you are dead wrong, which is why I simply ducked out and referred you to the “Great Jhana Debate” thread.

:focus:
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Ajahn Brahmavamso's Dark Jhana

Post by Ceisiwr »

coconut wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 12:12 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 12:11 pm
coconut wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 12:07 pm


Why are you doubling down?

From DN 15:

Because I’ve heard your arguments 1000 times before by 100 different people and I’ve seen them be demolished 1000 times, which is why I’m not much interested in debating it anymore. My mind is made up and it’s too time consuming to go through it all bit by bit to show how you are dead wrong, which is why I simply ducked out and referred you to the “Great Jhana Debate” thread.
Whatever you say, but your DN 15 reference goes against your point, it only shows that "perception of diversity" is a hindrance to formless jhanas, and not what you said, to first jhana.
If you read up a bit you will see that the 1st Jhana is of 1 perception. It doesn’t define the 4th but it could be that the 4th is of diverse. Your post doesn’t prove anything. Now, that’s the end of the matter here (with me anyway.)
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
coconut
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Re: Ajahn Brahmavamso's Dark Jhana

Post by coconut »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 12:15 pm
coconut wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 12:12 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 12:11 pm

Because I’ve heard your arguments 1000 times before by 100 different people and I’ve seen them be demolished 1000 times, which is why I’m not much interested in debating it anymore. My mind is made up and it’s too time consuming to go through it all bit by bit to show how you are dead wrong, which is why I simply ducked out and referred you to the “Great Jhana Debate” thread.
Whatever you say, but your DN 15 reference goes against your point, it only shows that "perception of diversity" is a hindrance to formless jhanas, and not what you said, to first jhana.
If you read up a bit you will see that the 1st Jhana is of 1 perception. It doesn’t define the 4th but it could be that the 4th is of diverse. Your post doesn’t prove anything. Now, that’s the end of the matter here (with me anyway.)
You said can't be aware of multiple nimittas or phenomen, I linked to MN 111 saying that's not the case, then you said it's a fake sutta or whatever, but what about the many suttas that have this line?
And what, Ānanda, is the path and the practice for giving up the five lower fetters? It’s when a mendicant—due to the seclusion from attachments, the giving up of unskillful qualities, and the complete settling of physical discomfort—quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected. They contemplate the phenomena there—included in form, feeling, perception, choices, and consciousness—as impermanent, as suffering, as diseased, as an abscess, as a dart, as misery, as an affliction, as alien, as falling apart, as empty, as not-self. They turn their mind away from those things, and apply it to the deathless element: ‘This is peaceful; this is sublime—that is, the stilling of all activities, the letting go of all attachments, the ending of craving, cessation, extinguishment.’ Abiding in that they attain the ending of defilements. If they don’t attain the ending of defilements, with the ending of the five lower fetters they’re reborn spontaneously, because of their passion and love for that meditation. They are extinguished there, and are not liable to return from that world. This is the path and the practice for giving up the five lower fetters.
Tell me, how can you "Contemplate the phenomena there", if you cannot be aware of more than "one perception" according to you?
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Re: Ajahn Brahmavamso's Dark Jhana

Post by Ceisiwr »

coconut wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 12:18 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 12:15 pm
coconut wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 12:12 pm

Whatever you say, but your DN 15 reference goes against your point, it only shows that "perception of diversity" is a hindrance to formless jhanas, and not what you said, to first jhana.
If you read up a bit you will see that the 1st Jhana is of 1 perception. It doesn’t define the 4th but it could be that the 4th is of diverse. Your post doesn’t prove anything. Now, that’s the end of the matter here (with me anyway.)
You said can't be aware of multiple nimittas or phenomen, I linked to MN 111 saying that's not the case, then you said it's a fake sutta or whatever, but what about the many suttas that have this line?
And what, Ānanda, is the path and the practice for giving up the five lower fetters? It’s when a mendicant—due to the seclusion from attachments, the giving up of unskillful qualities, and the complete settling of physical discomfort—quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected. They contemplate the phenomena there—included in form, feeling, perception, choices, and consciousness—as impermanent, as suffering, as diseased, as an abscess, as a dart, as misery, as an affliction, as alien, as falling apart, as empty, as not-self. They turn their mind away from those things, and apply it to the deathless element: ‘This is peaceful; this is sublime—that is, the stilling of all activities, the letting go of all attachments, the ending of craving, cessation, extinguishment.’ Abiding in that they attain the ending of defilements. If they don’t attain the ending of defilements, with the ending of the five lower fetters they’re reborn spontaneously, because of their passion and love for that meditation. They are extinguished there, and are not liable to return from that world. This is the path and the practice for giving up the five lower fetters.
Tell me, how can you "Contemplate the phenomena there", if you cannot be aware of more than "one perception" according to you?
Go read the Great Jhana Debate thread. All of this has come up in there and has been argued for and against in debate, in the greatest of detail and with the highest analysis of the Pali and it’s grammar.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Ajahn Brahmavamso's Dark Jhana

Post by Ceisiwr »

coconut wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 12:18 pm ...
Also the “constant Jhana” debate is good, and shorter: https://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.p ... perception
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Ajahn Brahmavamso's Dark Jhana

Post by coconut »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 12:52 pm
coconut wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 12:50 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 12:49 pm

:rofl:
Laugh now, but then you'll cry later about someone being a dick to you when they prove you wrong.
I don’t think people are dicks to me when they prove me wrong. I think people are dicks when they act like a dick, be that when proving me wrong or about anything else.
And the point completely went over your head.. that you mock people and then complain about being mocked. You have little self awareness.
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Re: Ajahn Brahmavamso's Dark Jhana

Post by Ceisiwr »

coconut wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 12:53 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 12:52 pm
coconut wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 12:50 pm

Laugh now, but then you'll cry later about someone being a dick to you when they prove you wrong.
I don’t think people are dicks to me when they prove me wrong. I think people are dicks when they act like a dick, be that when proving me wrong or about anything else.
And the point completely went over your head.. that you mock people and then complain about being mocked. You have little self awareness.
I’m laughing at your arrogance, because it’s ridiculous. Also, just for correction, I called you a dick last time in relation to how you were acting towards someone else. Now, stop disrupting the thread.

:focus:
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
coconut
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Re: Ajahn Brahmavamso's Dark Jhana

Post by coconut »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 12:57 pm
coconut wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 12:53 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 12:52 pm

I don’t think people are dicks to me when they prove me wrong. I think people are dicks when they act like a dick, be that when proving me wrong or about anything else.
And the point completely went over your head.. that you mock people and then complain about being mocked. You have little self awareness.
I’m laughing at your arrogance, because it’s ridiculous. Also, just for correction, I called you a dick last time in relation to how you were acting towards someone else. Now, stop disrupting the thread.

:focus:
Interesting that the person didn't say anything about my "acting as a dick" but you did, which means you felt attacked and they didn't perceive it as an attack, which means you're just projecting your own insecurities on everyone. Maybe if you stopped being disrespectful, you'd stop feeling disrespected by others?
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Re: Ajahn Brahmavamso's Dark Jhana

Post by Ceisiwr »

:offtopic:

:focus:
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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