The Great Jhana Debate

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
48vows
Posts: 185
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2020 2:31 am

Re: Ajahn Brahmavamso's Dark Jhana

Post by 48vows »

coconut wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 11:50 amOne gets rids of "perceptions of diversity" to attain the formless jhanas
Do the suttas actually refer to the formless as jhana ?
coconut
Posts: 1061
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:10 am

Re: Ajahn Brahmavamso's Dark Jhana

Post by coconut »

48vows wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 1:10 pm
coconut wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 11:50 amOne gets rids of "perceptions of diversity" to attain the formless jhanas
Do the suttas actually refer to the formless as jhana ?
No, but I don't argue over semantics.
User avatar
confusedlayman
Posts: 6231
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am
Location: Human Realm (as of now)

Re: Ajahn Brahmavamso's Dark Jhana

Post by confusedlayman »

coconut wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 11:13 am Continuing from my post, it's quite obvious that the jhana factors are the nimittas and not light.

- Samathanimitta = passaddhi
- Abyagganimitta = samadhinimitta = ekaggata

Also the suttas show that light is a nimitta of abhinna, not jhanas. As "light and forms" arise together, since the Buddha talks about the first time he saw devas he was learning how to balance light and forms.

So light is something that can arise in 3rd or 4th jhana.
Light can arise only in access/neibourhood concentration which lies before 1st jhana...

The light is intentionally created if needed its yellowish color with brown mix.. its of no consequence as u can atyain jhana without light... the light arises only after access concentration...

I think divine eye is something that u can use in normal state... u dont need fake perception based light to see something outside of u...
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
User avatar
frank k
Posts: 2247
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 4:55 pm
Contact:

Re: Ajahn Brahmavamso's Dark Jhana

Post by frank k »

bksubhuti wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 12:45 am I find suttanta people to be quite angry in their writings and speech. One seasoned suttanta monk calls this "nyanavirus". Usually people outgrow this stage, but it is typically shortly after they read "clearing the path". I would guess the same is with EBT followers who prefer chinese writings with Mahayana influence over the Pali texts.
...
I find that many Vism. followers, including ordained monastics, tend to avoid confronting the truth and civil discourse and fair questions asked of them, and living in denial when there is abundance of evidence that a significant amount of Theravada commentary does not cohere, and in many cases flat out contradict core EBT teachings.

Much of the EBT Chinese is congruent and consistent with the Theravada EBT, so it's not a matter of choosing one interpretation over another as B. Subhuti insinuates.

Even if you stay within Theravada exclusively, there's more than enough evidence of Vism. contradicting EBT.
Take the KN Pe word commentary on the four jhana formula for example.

http://lucid24.org/kn/kn-pe/jhana/index.html

It's extraordinarily clear and detailed in what vitakka and vicara do. And also very explicit about 'kaya' being the physical body.
Check the pali. What's the point of working on a new pali digital tool if you don't use it to examine important passages on jhana that could illuminate your understanding of the corruption of jhana by Vism.?

Also take a look at MN 111 and AN 9.36.
Those two suttas are especially clear about jhana not being a frozen stupor that one predetermines an amount of time to enter and emerge from before one can do vipassana WHILE in jhana (and the first 7 attainments). It's only the 8th and 9th attainment that resemble the kind of 'emerging from attainment to do vipassana' that Vism. talks about.

I heard Pa Auk made an excuse about MN 111 that only Sariputta was special enough to do 'jhana' in that way described in MN 111. Then take a look at AN 9.36. It's talking about everyone, not just Sariputta. And there are a number of other suttas corroborating, if one is willing to actually not be afraid to confront uncomfortable truths that challenge their faith.
Last edited by frank k on Sat Nov 28, 2020 2:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
www.lucid24.org/sted : ☸Lucid24.org🐘 STED definitions
www.audtip.org/audtip: 🎙️🔊Audio Tales in Pāli: ☸Dharma and Vinaya in many languages
User avatar
confusedlayman
Posts: 6231
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am
Location: Human Realm (as of now)

Re: Ajahn Brahmavamso's Dark Jhana

Post by confusedlayman »

atipattoh wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 1:14 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 1:08 pm Ajhan brahm also teach to see past life which means he doing jhana correctly and teaching the same?
Sorry friend. :tongue:
I don't subscribe to that criteria in Rupa Jhana definition.
if he can do that malleable consciousness based analysis, then his jhana is solid one that don't feel body. that's what vism says and that what buddha also says (u can't hear sound in jhana)

I am skeptic about lite jhana but they also count towards some positive rebirth
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22383
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: Ajahn Brahmavamso's Dark Jhana

Post by Ceisiwr »

frank k wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 2:08 pm
Also take a look at MN 111 and AN 9.36.
Those two suttas are especially clear about jhana not being a frozen stupor that one predetermines an amount of time to enter and emerge from before one can do vipassana WHILE in jhana (and the first 7 attainments). It's only the 8th and 9th attainment that resemble the kind of 'emerging from attainment to do vipassana' that Vism. talks about.
MN 111 being a support for the instant Jhana crowd has been debunked many times, over and over again.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
atipattoh
Posts: 445
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2011 8:28 am

Re: Ajahn Brahmavamso's Dark Jhana

Post by atipattoh »

confusedlayman wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 2:13 pm
atipattoh wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 1:14 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 1:08 pm Ajhan brahm also teach to see past life which means he doing jhana correctly and teaching the same?
Sorry friend. :tongue:
I don't subscribe to that criteria in Rupa Jhana definition.
if he can do that malleable consciousness based analysis, then his jhana is solid one that don't feel body. that's what vism says and that what buddha also says (u can't hear sound in jhana)

I am skeptic about lite jhana but they also count towards some positive rebirth
Yes, no hearing.
That is the part that i have concern, if you read the asaññasatta that i mention. That is the main reason for me to post a follow up.

Too little info on asaññi practice. I tried to find related sutta before, didn't get much.

And yes, i believe lite jhana also bring about positive rebirth, it is also wholesome samadhi.
User avatar
confusedlayman
Posts: 6231
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am
Location: Human Realm (as of now)

Re: Ajahn Brahmavamso's Dark Jhana

Post by confusedlayman »

atipattoh wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 2:54 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 2:13 pm
atipattoh wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 1:14 pm
Sorry friend. :tongue:
I don't subscribe to that criteria in Rupa Jhana definition.
if he can do that malleable consciousness based analysis, then his jhana is solid one that don't feel body. that's what vism says and that what buddha also says (u can't hear sound in jhana)

I am skeptic about lite jhana but they also count towards some positive rebirth
Yes, no hearing.
That is the part that i have concern, if you read the asaññasatta that i mention. That is the main reason for me to post a follow up.

Too little info on asaññi practice. I tried to find related sutta before, didn't get much.

And yes, i believe lite jhana also bring about positive rebirth, it is also wholesome samadhi.
in jhana u can't hear sound .. buddha openly said it to his chief disciple

in another sutta buddha spoke of walking in jhana as walking like brahma... (I think this is metaphor but buddha don't say anything without mindfulness) so confusing
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
atipattoh
Posts: 445
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2011 8:28 am

Re: Ajahn Brahmavamso's Dark Jhana

Post by atipattoh »

confusedlayman wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:59 pm in jhana u can't hear sound .. buddha openly said it to his chief disciple
Asaññī should be not hearing too.
in another sutta buddha spoke of walking in jhana as walking like brahma... (I think this is metaphor but buddha don't say anything without mindfulness) so confusing
For this question, it is beyond my comprehension. :tongue:

May be it can be interpret from the perspective of "enter and remain". For white kasina, limitless in up front due to "explosion", for air kasina as in-out breath, limitless is later, due to later absorption of patibhaga nimita, the obhasanimitta.

Patisambhidamagga pg43
There is mind as consciousness due to long in-breaths ... There is mind as consciousness due to short in-breaths ... [and so on with all the other modes up to] ... There is mind as consciousness due to out-breaths calming the mind fabrication; any mind, cognizance, mentation, heart, lucidity, mind, mind base, mind faculty, consciousness, consciousness aggregate, mind consciousness principle produced by that (i.e. tajja mano), is mind.
Patisambhidamagga pg15
Sign (nimitta), in-breath, out-breath, are not the object of a single mind;
One not knowing these three dhammas does not obtain development.
Sign, in-breath, out-breath, are not the object of a single mind;
One knowing well these three dhammas can then obtain development.
(this is one statement that probably supports momentary.)

Lets consider a more complex movement, say riding a bicycle. You do not have to be mindful of the stepping on the pedal, which also include balancing that is achieved effortlessly, you are mindful of the road, the surrounding ; yet you can continuously stepping without instruction from the mind.

So, similarly, if the mind momentary absorb into the patibhaga nimitta and the next moment it is out, to a coment people's sense of time frame, those moments are appearing to be occurring in parallel.

Sign (nimitta), in-out-breath, appear to be the object of a single mind as it appear to occur simultaneously, but it is not.

(this is another concern on translation difference in SN16.9, its impact on the word “yāvade ākaṅkhāmi” as “whenever I wish”, replacing “whatever extent I wish”; is its limitation)
User avatar
frank k
Posts: 2247
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 4:55 pm
Contact:

Re: Ajahn Brahmavamso's Dark Jhana

Post by frank k »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 2:14 pm
frank k wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 2:08 pm
Also take a look at MN 111 and AN 9.36.
Those two suttas are especially clear about jhana not being a frozen stupor that one predetermines an amount of time to enter and emerge from before one can do vipassana WHILE in jhana (and the first 7 attainments). It's only the 8th and 9th attainment that resemble the kind of 'emerging from attainment to do vipassana' that Vism. talks about.
MN 111 being a support for the instant Jhana crowd has been debunked many times, over and over again.

I don't understand what you're saying.
Exactly what do you mean by 'instant jhana crowd', and what exactly is being debunked over and over again (refs and links please)?
Are you saying Vism "jhana" and MN 111 are describing the same jhana activity?
Last edited by frank k on Sun Nov 29, 2020 5:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
www.lucid24.org/sted : ☸Lucid24.org🐘 STED definitions
www.audtip.org/audtip: 🎙️🔊Audio Tales in Pāli: ☸Dharma and Vinaya in many languages
User avatar
frank k
Posts: 2247
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 4:55 pm
Contact:

Re: Ajahn Brahmavamso's Dark Jhana

Post by frank k »

Robert moved my message to a different thread, I'm reposting it here with some clarification, because it is relevant to the OP of the difference between A. Brahm and Pa Auk "Jhana", and I want to make sure B. Subhuti sees this message and doesn't try to duck the tough questions again like he did earlier on Dhammawheel and other forums.

I don't recall what A. Brahm has said about MN 111, but I did hear from a friend who asked Pa Auk about MN 111 and heard his explanation (described in the quoted message of mine).

Since B. Subhuti has access to Pa Auk, it would be great to get his comments on KN Pe Jhana word commentary.
http://lucid24.org/kn/kn-pe/jhana/index.html

I'd also like to hear A. Brahm's comment on it as well, to those people on the thread who have access to him. KN Pe predates Vism. by several hundred years, it very clearly contradicts the Vism. and A. Brahm interpretation of jhana with the body disappearing, and vitakka and vicara not being straightforward thinking/pondering/evaluation/examination, etc.




frank k wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 2:08 pm
bksubhuti wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 12:45 am I find suttanta people to be quite angry in their writings and speech. One seasoned suttanta monk calls this "nyanavirus". Usually people outgrow this stage, but it is typically shortly after they read "clearing the path". I would guess the same is with EBT followers who prefer chinese writings with Mahayana influence over the Pali texts.
...
I find that many Vism. followers, including ordained monastics, tend to avoid confronting the truth and civil discourse and fair questions asked of them, and living in denial when there is abundance of evidence that a significant amount of Theravada commentary does not cohere, and in many cases flat out contradict core EBT teachings.

Much of the EBT Chinese is congruent and consistent with the Theravada EBT, so it's not a matter of choosing one interpretation over another as B. Subhuti insinuates.

Even if you stay within Theravada exclusively, there's more than enough evidence of Vism. contradicting EBT.
Take the KN Pe word commentary on the four jhana formula for example.

http://lucid24.org/kn/kn-pe/jhana/index.html

It's extraordinarily clear and detailed in what vitakka and vicara do. And also very explicit about 'kaya' being the physical body.
Check the pali. What's the point of working on a new pali digital tool if you don't use it to examine important passages on jhana that could illuminate your understanding of the corruption of jhana by Vism.?

Also take a look at MN 111 and AN 9.36.
Those two suttas are especially clear about jhana not being a frozen stupor that one predetermines an amount of time to enter and emerge from before one can do vipassana WHILE in jhana (and the first 7 attainments). It's only the 8th and 9th attainment that resemble the kind of 'emerging from attainment to do vipassana' that Vism. talks about.

I heard Pa Auk made an excuse about MN 111 that only Sariputta was special enough to do 'jhana' in that way described in MN 111. Then take a look at AN 9.36. It's talking about everyone, not just Sariputta. And there are a number of other suttas corroborating, if one is willing to actually not be afraid to confront uncomfortable truths that challenge their faith.
www.lucid24.org/sted : ☸Lucid24.org🐘 STED definitions
www.audtip.org/audtip: 🎙️🔊Audio Tales in Pāli: ☸Dharma and Vinaya in many languages
auto
Posts: 4582
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: The Great Jhana Debate

Post by auto »

https://suttacentral.net/mn111/en/sujato wrote:And he meditated without attraction or repulsion for those phenomena; independent, untied, liberated, detached, his mind free of limits.So tesu dhammesu anupāyo anapāyo anissito appaṭibaddho vippamutto visaṃyutto vimariyādīkatena cetasā viharati.
and mn 44
https://suttacentral.net/mn43/en/sujato wrote: “What can be known by purified mind consciousness released from the five senses?”“Nissaṭṭhena hāvuso, pañcahi indriyehi parisuddhena manoviññāṇena kiṃ neyyan”ti?

“Aware that ‘space is infinite’ it can know the dimension of infinite space. Aware that ‘consciousness is infinite’ it can know the dimension of infinite consciousness. Aware that ‘there is nothing at all’ it can know the dimension of nothingness.”“Nissaṭṭhena, āvuso, pañcahi indriyehi parisuddhena manoviññāṇena ‘ananto ākāso’ti ākāsānañcāyatanaṃ neyyaṃ, ‘anantaṃ viññāṇan’ti viññāṇañcāyatanaṃ neyyaṃ, ‘natthi kiñcī’ti ākiñcaññāyatanaṃ neyyan”ti.

“How do you understand something that can be known?”“Neyyaṃ panāvuso, dhammaṃ kena pajānātī”ti?

“You understand something that can be known with the eye of wisdom.”“Neyyaṃ kho, āvuso, dhammaṃ paññācakkhunā pajānātī”ti.

“What is the purpose of wisdom?”“Paññā panāvuso, kimatthiyā”ti?

“The purpose of wisdom is direct knowledge, complete understanding, and giving up.”“Paññā kho, āvuso, abhiññatthā pariññatthā pahānatthā”ti.
Mind free of limits(mn 111) - Someone who's mind can know ākāsānañcāyatana.. mind is released from the five senses. I think the person who's mind is released from the five senses won't have same jhana whos mind is not released from the five senses.
Factor here seem to be if the mind is released or not from the five senses when doing jhana.
User avatar
pitithefool
Posts: 343
Joined: Mon Feb 15, 2021 5:39 am

Re: The Great Jhana Debate

Post by pitithefool »

auto wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 2:47 pm
https://suttacentral.net/mn111/en/sujato wrote:And he meditated without attraction or repulsion for those phenomena; independent, untied, liberated, detached, his mind free of limits.So tesu dhammesu anupāyo anapāyo anissito appaṭibaddho vippamutto visaṃyutto vimariyādīkatena cetasā viharati.
and mn 44
https://suttacentral.net/mn43/en/sujato wrote: “What can be known by purified mind consciousness released from the five senses?”“Nissaṭṭhena hāvuso, pañcahi indriyehi parisuddhena manoviññāṇena kiṃ neyyan”ti?

“Aware that ‘space is infinite’ it can know the dimension of infinite space. Aware that ‘consciousness is infinite’ it can know the dimension of infinite consciousness. Aware that ‘there is nothing at all’ it can know the dimension of nothingness.”“Nissaṭṭhena, āvuso, pañcahi indriyehi parisuddhena manoviññāṇena ‘ananto ākāso’ti ākāsānañcāyatanaṃ neyyaṃ, ‘anantaṃ viññāṇan’ti viññāṇañcāyatanaṃ neyyaṃ, ‘natthi kiñcī’ti ākiñcaññāyatanaṃ neyyan”ti.

“How do you understand something that can be known?”“Neyyaṃ panāvuso, dhammaṃ kena pajānātī”ti?

“You understand something that can be known with the eye of wisdom.”“Neyyaṃ kho, āvuso, dhammaṃ paññācakkhunā pajānātī”ti.

“What is the purpose of wisdom?”“Paññā panāvuso, kimatthiyā”ti?

“The purpose of wisdom is direct knowledge, complete understanding, and giving up.”“Paññā kho, āvuso, abhiññatthā pariññatthā pahānatthā”ti.
Mind free of limits(mn 111) - Someone who's mind can know ākāsānañcāyatana.. mind is released from the five senses. I think the person who's mind is released from the five senses won't have same jhana whos mind is not released from the five senses.
Factor here seem to be if the mind is released or not from the five senses when doing jhana.
I think "purified mind consciousness released from the five senses" here likely means that the mind is purified by the attaining the fourth jhana on that occasion, and that it is descending into emptiness, like in MN 121, not necessarily that the person is a non-returner as we understand it.
Please note: This profile picture is not actually a picture of the user.
auto
Posts: 4582
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: The Great Jhana Debate

Post by auto »

pitithefool wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:12 pm I think "purified mind consciousness released from the five senses" here likely means that the mind is purified by the attaining the fourth jhana on that occasion, and that it is descending into emptiness, like in MN 121, not necessarily that the person is a non-returner as we understand it.
I didn't check the term 'vimariyādīkatena' which seem to be about conduct. And it is possible that the 'purified mind consciousness..' is about conduct too.
User avatar
pitithefool
Posts: 343
Joined: Mon Feb 15, 2021 5:39 am

Re: The Great Jhana Debate

Post by pitithefool »

auto wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 3:29 pm
pitithefool wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:12 pm I think "purified mind consciousness released from the five senses" here likely means that the mind is purified by the attaining the fourth jhana on that occasion, and that it is descending into emptiness, like in MN 121, not necessarily that the person is a non-returner as we understand it.
I didn't check the term 'vimariyādīkatena' which seem to be about conduct. And it is possible that the 'purified mind consciousness..' is about conduct too.
From what I can gather, I think it means something like "unimpeded" or something similar. I think it refers specifically to the mind of a meditator while in samadhi in MN 111, being detached from the phenomena, although 10.81 seems to be about the mind of a Tathagata. I think they both do have to do with conduct but as I understand it, mostly on an instrumental level as it relates to samadhi.

I haven't read any commentary on this so I'm just going off of English translations :mrgreen:
Please note: This profile picture is not actually a picture of the user.
Post Reply