Mind goes into hiding, cittam niliyati?

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
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Bikkhutittadammo
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Mind goes into hiding, cittam niliyati?

Post by Bikkhutittadammo »

I was listening to this Bhante from Sri Lanka, Ven. Mankadawala suddassana. He was talking about sattipatthana bhavana. One of things he said worried me a bit, it was about the mind going into hiding if we force attention on the primary object for too long ala samatha.
Where we sort have no idea what's happening, forget everything , and leads to a heavy sense of kusita. And lack of interest in meditation or even learning Dhamma. People end up thinking this is an understanding of sunnata and maybe a magga pala.

This is what I have been experiencing for a while now, luckily I didn't start believing I was special. But thought it was a manifestation of nibbida. But I'm feeling that this may be a plateau. Has anyone heard anything about cittam niliyati?

I will post the video here but it's in Sinhalese, he mentions this around 1:00 hour mark.

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DooDoot
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Re: Mind goes into hiding, cittam niliyati?

Post by DooDoot »

Bikkhutittadammo wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 5:52 pm the mind going into hiding if we force attention on the primary object for too long ala samatha. Where we sort have no idea what's happening, forget everything...
The above sounds like "sinking mind", i.e., sloth & torpor; which occurs to practitioners of suppression. Some Buddhists, regardless if they are from Sri Lanka or Norway, believe this sloth & torpor to be Nirodha Samapatti. :smile:
Last edited by DooDoot on Tue Jul 13, 2021 9:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Bikkhutittadammo
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Re: Mind goes into hiding, cittam niliyati?

Post by Bikkhutittadammo »

DooDoot wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 9:24 pm
Bikkhutittadammo wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 5:52 pm the mind going into hiding if we force attention on the primary object for too long ala samatha. Where we sort have no idea what's happening, forget everything...
The above sounds like "sinking mind", i.e., sloth & torpor; which occurs to practitioners of suppression. Some Buddhists, regardless if they are from Sri Lanka or Norway, believe this sloth & torpor to be Nirodha Samapatti. :smile:
Interesting, could you please elaborate on what you mean by practitioners of suppression. When the mind goes to this state, it's always when I force awareness on the primary object,instead of letting​ it go where it wants, mindfully. Is that what you mean?
SarathW
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Re: Mind goes into hiding, cittam niliyati?

Post by SarathW »

If you want to be a real warier you have to fight with a real enemy. If you are hiding in a cave you can’t face your enemy.
In the same way the mind can go into a hiding. Some call this mind become Bavanga. Some call it sleepy was or sloth and torpor. Some call it fifth Mara. Some call it buffalos mindfulness.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
pegembara
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Re: Mind goes into hiding, cittam niliyati?

Post by pegembara »

SarathW wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 11:15 pm If you want to be a real warier you have to fight with a real enemy. If you are hiding in a cave you can’t face your enemy.
In the same way the mind can go into a hiding. Some call this mind become Bavanga. Some call it sleepy was or sloth and torpor. Some call it fifth Mara. Some call it buffalos mindfulness.
Like taking a sleeping pill or alcohol. Still unable to deal with the "real" world after coming out.
Any meditation that doesn't help reduce or eliminate dukkha in daily life is just temporary escapism.
The "real" world is still "real" to such a practitioner.

Doesn't permanently deal with the main issues.
“And what is the noble search? Here someone being himself subject to birth, having understood the danger in what is subject to birth, seeks the unborn supreme security from bondage, Nibbāna; being himself subject to ageing, having understood the danger in what is subject to ageing, he seeks the unageing supreme security from bondage, Nibbāna; being himself subject to sickness, having understood the danger in what is subject to sickness, he seeks the unailing supreme security from bondage, Nibbāna; being himself subject to death, having understood the danger in what is subject to death, he seeks the deathless supreme security from bondage, Nibbāna; being himself subject to sorrow, having understood the danger in what is subject to sorrow, he seeks the sorrowless supreme security from bondage, Nibbāna; being himself subject to defilement, having understood the danger in what is subject to defilement, he seeks the undefiled supreme security from bondage, Nibbāna. This is the noble search.
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confusedlayman
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Re: Mind goes into hiding, cittam niliyati?

Post by confusedlayman »

If mind pulls back to content non intentional formation place because of knowledge that fabricstion is stress and needs maintaince, then i think its good

But if u purposely go non thinking then it will be streessfull to maintain the state

Sometimes when i do metta it happens that i think metta is stress to maintain and originatie... non origination of new phenomena is good so mind just rests without fabrication new feeling which is more content than maintaing metta etc .. but it is just resting awareness that can come in to contact with anything if needed
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
pegembara
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Re: Mind goes into hiding, cittam niliyati?

Post by pegembara »

No need to go into hiding. Better to just let nothing stick ie. Teflon Mind,
"Bhikkhus, when a noble follower who has heard (the truth) sees thus, he finds estrangement in form, he finds estrangement in feeling, he finds estrangement in perception, he finds estrangement in determinations, he finds estrangement in consciousness.

"When he finds estrangement, passion fades out. With the fading of passion, he is liberated. When liberated, there is knowledge that he is liberated. He understands: 'Birth is exhausted, the holy life has been lived out, what can be done is done, of this there is no more beyond.'"
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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DooDoot
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Re: Mind goes into hiding, cittam niliyati?

Post by DooDoot »

Bikkhutittadammo wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 10:17 pm I force awareness on the primary object... Is that what you mean?
Yes.
Bikkhutittadammo wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 10:17 pm instead of letting​ it go where it wants, mindfully.
Letting the mind go where it wants is not mindfulness.

The dichotomy above of too much effort vs too little effort sounds not like the Middle-Way.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Tennok
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Re: Mind goes into hiding, cittam niliyati?

Post by Tennok »

t's always when I force awareness on the primary object,instead of letting​ it go where it wants, mindfully
There is a choiceless awarness meditation, but it's not the only good way to meditate. Letting the mind wander freely may work sometimes, but when I do it, I usually end up watching some movie in my memory, planning my lunch or something like that.

Sati means to remember about your chosen meditation object. On the other hand, forcing is never good. I 've experienced those dull, sloth related states of mind many times, too. As others had pointed out, it's sloth and torpor plus escapism, very likely.

Some advice & tricks that worked for me ( at least sometimes ):

Instead of focusing on the meditation object forcefully, work on dropping - or fading - the whole rest of your perception and experience, in a gentle, friendly way. By letting go, not pushing it away. It's kind of automatic, when it happends.

Generate some metta toward your meditation object. If it's a breath, give it some love. Mind may glue into the object without forcing. If some piti and sukha appears, that's even better.

Keep a good balance between mindfulness and tranquility. I tend to struggle with that, as I get too tempted to focus more and dive into ekkagata.

Try to watch carefully the space between the meditation object and your percieving mind. The hindrances often manifest in this space, and if you see this sloth and torpor early, it won't overrun you. And later, you can learn something from the hindrance. I believe it's very important to accept, what's really going on with us, instead of running away. As some zen folk put it, bad meditation is a good meditation. Becuse we learn from it :smile:.
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