Awareness vs Mindfulness?

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
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DooDoot
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Re: Awareness vs Mindfulness?

Post by DooDoot »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 2:12 pm Sampajjana means awareness and clear comprehension of the purpose of ones present action and what one is doing.
No. Sampajjana means awareness and clear comprehension of ones present action and what one is doing in relation to the Buddhist Path.

:buddha1: :strawman: :jedi:
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Re: Awareness vs Mindfulness?

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Cause_and_Effect wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 2:12 pm ...
Can you edit your post so that you don't quote his whole post? It makes for awful reading for others to have to scroll through it all again.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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nirodh27
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Re: Awareness vs Mindfulness?

Post by nirodh27 »

It seems to me that what the "mindfulness movement" misses is that the core of the Buddhist practice is best described in MN19 and MN20.

Thanks Doodoot, this is a crucial argument for practice. Progress on the Buddhist path is impossible if we simply observe the Breath as an object, the gatekeeper needs to evaluate and abandon thanks to comprehension and knowledge of the teachings.
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Re: Awareness vs Mindfulness?

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Cause_and_Effect wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:36 am

One can apply more discernment as to whether thoughts are beneficial or not later, but the attitude of non-judgemental awareness comes first.

The instructions are consistent with this:

"Rahula, develop the meditation like earth. For when you are developing the meditation like earth, agreeable & disagreeable sensory impressions that have arisen will not stay in charge of your mind. Just as when people throw what is clean or unclean on the earth — feces, urine, saliva, pus, or blood — the earth is not horrified, humiliated, or disgusted by it; in the same way, when you are developing the meditation like earth, agreeable & disagreeable sensory impressions that have arisen will not stay in charge of your mind."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

The Buddha gives this as a preliminary meditation before giving the more detailed instructions on Anapanasati which is consistent with this interpretation.
Nice sutta! Cool. But this sutta is about Elements, Upekkha and Metta. About Anatta. There is a lot of background into it. Do you think that some dude who just read Kabat Zinn or got the new meditation app, will be aware of this context, when "watching the breath without judgement"?

I doubt secular mindfulness teachers teach much about Elements - this stuff is rarely mentioned in the West.
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Re: Awareness vs Mindfulness?

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one_awakening wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 12:01 pm Secular mindfulness may bring some benefit to people, that's fine, but I don't like how they misrepresent The Buddha's teachings.
Me too! Religion is not cool nowdays, so they sell what sells. Like a doctor who says "I can't advocate Buddhism, no way. But Kabat Zinn, voilla!

But I must be carefull, not to develop too much Dosa toward it. I generally feel Dosa toward big social trends and fashions...even if they contain some good parts.

Still remember, when 20 years ago Kabbalah was a hot topic among celebrities and moghuls of this world. Or the Holy Grail. :smile: . They will find some new toy soon enough. We just need to wait for Oprah or Jack Dorsey to announce it.
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Re: Awareness vs Mindfulness?

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Tennok wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 3:44 am Nice sutta! Cool. But this sutta is about Elements, Upekkha and Metta. About Anatta. There is a lot of background into it. Do you think that some dude who just read Kabat Zinn or got the new meditation app, will be aware of this context, when "watching the breath without judgement"?

I doubt secular mindfulness teachers teach much about Elements - this stuff is rarely mentioned in the West.
I see it as just using the elements as an analogy for non-reactivity to whichever thoughts occur rather than a detailed contemplation of the elements.

Secular mindfulness teaches anatta in seeing thoughts as passing events in the mind without grasping to them as 'me' or 'my' thoughts.

I think it gets too much of a bad wrap sometimes but Kabat Zinn has been explicit in some of his writings that he is promoting the Dhamma in the West in a more agreeable form.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Tennok
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Re: Awareness vs Mindfulness?

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Cause_and_Effect wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:10 am
I think it gets too much of a bad wrap sometimes but Kabat Zinn has been explicit in some of his writings that he is promoting the Dhamma in the West in a more agreeable form.
And here we cannot agree...Why make things agreeable. Why mix Coltrane's jazz to serve as elevator music? For the money?

I just don't like "agreeable" things. I like good things.

Btw...the Mahayana Buddhism was born, becaouse lay folk found the Arahat ideal to be too difficult...Too demanding. I believe people shall climb and grow, take effort to learn meaningfull things. And those who alter great teachings to cater to the masses, are not really doing people a good service.

Whats better - if one person tastes the real Dhamma, and became a Sotapanna, or if ten persons practice some washed up copy of Dhamma, and just lick it throught the window?

And I don't mean Kabat Zinn per se...I must admit I was so put off by his general ideal of secular mindfulness, that I never bought his book. But why would I, really, if I still have a Tipitaka to study?

Our time on this Earth is limited, and some books just steal it.

Btw, in the sutta you brought, the quality of "being like earth" is achieved by realising Anatta, which requires Right View. It's a serious accomplishment. It requires studies and reflection, not just labeling thoughts as "not mine" and fleeing... That actually sounds more like glimpses of Anicca to me...

Sorry for the rant :smile:. I'm a Dhamma snob.
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Re: Awareness vs Mindfulness?

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nirodh27 wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 1:49 pm It seems to me that what the "mindfulness movement" misses is that the core of the Buddhist practice is best described in MN19 and MN20.

Thanks Doodoot, this is a crucial argument for practice. Progress on the Buddhist path is impossible if we simply observe the Breath as an object, the gatekeeper needs to evaluate and abandon thanks to comprehension and knowledge of the teachings.
Thank you. I am please you understand. SN 46.3, for example, explicitly says the role of mindfulness is to remember the teachings and MN 117 explicitly says the role of mindfulness is to remember to practise the teachings.
one has heard the Dhamma... Dwelling thus withdrawn, one recollects that Dhamma and thinks it over. Whenever, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu dwelling thus withdrawn recollects that Dhamma and thinks it over, on that occasion the enlightenment factor of mindfulness is aroused by the bhikkhu; on that occasion the bhikkhu develops the enlightenment factor of mindfulness; on that occasion the enlightenment factor of mindfulness comes to fulfilment by development in the bhikkhu.

SN 46.3
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Re: Awareness vs Mindfulness?

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Cause_and_Effect wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:10 am I see it as just using the elements as an analogy for non-reactivity to whichever thoughts occur rather than a detailed contemplation of the elements.

Secular mindfulness teaches anatta in seeing thoughts as passing events in the mind without grasping to them as 'me' or 'my' thoughts.

I think it gets too much of a bad wrap sometimes but Kabat Zinn has been explicit in some of his writings that he is promoting the Dhamma in the West in a more agreeable form.
The above sounds unrelated to Buddhism but sounds merely the product of a fertile imagination.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Awareness vs Mindfulness?

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

DooDoot wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 6:37 am The above sounds...
:oops:

More egoic fault finding mind in action, with the usual vague and invalid criticisms merely for the sake of attempting to falsely aggrandize oneself and disparage others.

My advice; log off, meditate more and please
speak far less
:anjali:
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Re: Awareness vs Mindfulness?

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* MOD NOTE*

Please refrain from personal attacks and stay on topic


:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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Re: Awareness vs Mindfulness?

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Cause_and_Effect wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:10 am I see it as just using the elements as an analogy for non-reactivity to whichever thoughts occur rather than a detailed contemplation of the elements.
The "element analogy" is literally as follows: "agreeable & disagreeable sensory impressions that have arisen will not stay in charge of your mind." It is not directly about "thoughts". It is the opposite. It is being above to observe sense experiences without giving rise to defiled thoughts.
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:10 amSecular mindfulness teaches anatta in seeing thoughts as passing events in the mind without grasping to them as 'me' or 'my' thoughts.
Buddhism teaches the five aggregates (rather than one aspect of one aggregate) is not-self.

Also, most thoughts are concerned with 'self' therefore it sounds illogical that a mind that habitually thinks can gain some imaginary insight into an imaginary "thoughts without a thinker". Most thoughts arise due to a thinker. When self is absent, thought ceases, unless when absolutely necessary.
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:10 amI think it gets too much of a bad wrap sometimes but Kabat Zinn has been explicit in some of his writings that he is promoting the Dhamma in the West in a more agreeable form.
In the suttas, the establishment of mindfulness results in the absence of thoughts. However, you appear to keep posting here & elsewhere that meditation is about watching thoughts. This appears alien to the primarily feature of Buddhist meditation.

:smile:
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Re: Awareness vs Mindfulness?

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

DooDoot wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 11:12 am
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:10 am I see it as just using the elements as an analogy for non-reactivity to whichever thoughts occur rather than a detailed contemplation of the elements.
The "element analogy" is literally as follows: "agreeable & disagreeable sensory impressions that have arisen will not stay in charge of your mind." It is not directly about "thoughts". It is the opposite. It is being above to observe sense experiences without giving rise to defiled thoughts.
You come across as not a meditator but merely a Pali language student. However, for the sake of others who may be reading I will answer you here, but I have no further interest in discussing the matter with you after this, although I will be happy to discuss it with others.

No, it's not 'the opposite'. Your statement makes no sense and is contradictory.

Sense impressions or thoughts can all be treated as mind objects in a similar way. Whether the thoughts arise in relation to sense objects or not they can be observed without giving rise to desire or aversion.
DooDoot wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 11:12 am
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:10 amSecular mindfulness teaches anatta in seeing thoughts as passing events in the mind without grasping to them as 'me' or 'my' thoughts.
Buddhism teaches the five aggregates (rather than one aspect of one aggregate) is not-self.

Also, most thoughts are concerned with 'self' therefore it sounds illogical that a mind that habitually thinks can gain some imaginary insight into an imaginary "thoughts without a thinker". Most thoughts arise due to a thinker. When self is absent, thought ceases, unless when absolutely necessary.
More jibbering and intellectual tongue waggling. One can begin by learning to view thoughts as not-self and gradually move on to contemplation of the other aggregates.
Just learn to meditate.
DooDoot wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 11:12 am
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:10 amI think it gets too much of a bad wrap sometimes but Kabat Zinn has been explicit in some of his writings that he is promoting the Dhamma in the West in a more agreeable form.
In the suttas, the establishment of mindfulness results in the absence of thoughts. However, you appear to keep posting here & elsewhere that meditation is about watching thoughts. This appears alien to the primarily feature of Buddhist meditation.
No, it isn't alien to Buddhist meditation, and if you had understood the very basics of the practice you wouldnt make such a ridiculous statement.

And nowhere does it ever say in the suttas nor does any Buddha Dhamma meditation teacher of any regard ever make the claim that the establishment of mindfulness results in the absence of thoughts.
One can also verify this from immediate experience.

Thinking can cease when mindfulness becomes stronger as ones practice develops, but it is present in the beginning.

According to the suttas, the absence of thinking or 'noble silence' begins only on attainment of the second jhana.

Vittakka - Vicara, variously translated but meaning verbal functions of the mind or thinking, are present still in the first jhana.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Re: Awareness vs Mindfulness?

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Cause_and_Effect wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 12:04 pm You come across as not a meditator but merely a Pali language student.
How can the above be true when what you post is not the heart of Buddhist meditation? :roll: If thinking was the heart of Buddhist meditation, why are there suttas, such as MN 19 & 20 about eradicating thoughts, including wholesome thoughts? :shrug:
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 12:04 pmHowever, for the sake of others who may be reading I will answer you here, but I have no further interest in discussing the matter with you after this, although I will be happy to discuss it with others.
Most on this topic have rejected what you have written. Most understand mindfulness means to remember to practise the Buddhist teachings rather than to simply be aware of what you are doing (such as being aware of picking your nose or being aware of eating junk food).
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 12:04 pmSense impressions or thoughts
Sense impression are not "thoughts". Oh dear :thinking:
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 12:04 pm can all be treated as mind objects
Sense impressions include what is seen via the eye, heard via the ear, etc, x 5
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 12:04 pm Whether the thoughts arise in relation to sense objects or not they can be observed without giving rise to desire or aversion.
thoughts that arise in relation to sense objects are generally the products of desire or aversion. The quote the suttas:
On seeing a form with the eye, he lusts after it if it is pleasing; he dislikes it if it is unpleasing. He abides with mindfulness of the body unestablished, with a limited mind, and he does not understand as it actually is the deliverance of mind and deliverance by wisdom wherein those evil unwholesome states cease without remainder. Engaged as he is in favouring and opposing, whatever feeling he feels—whether pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant—he delights in that feeling, welcomes it, and remains holding to it. As he does so, delight arises in him. Now delight in feelings is clinging. With his clinging as condition, being comes to be; with being as condition, birth; with birth as condition, ageing and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair come to be. Such is the origin of this whole mass of suffering.

MN 38
"Feeling born of eye-contact... Feeling born of ear-contact... Feeling born of nose-contact... Feeling born of tongue-contact... Feeling born of body-contact... Feeling born of intellect-contact...

"Perception of forms... Perception of sounds... Perception of smells... Perception of tastes... Perception of tactile sensations... Perception of ideas...

"Intention for forms... Intention for sounds... Intention for smells... Intention for tastes... Intention for tactile sensations... Intention for ideas...

"Craving for forms... Craving for sounds... Craving for smells... Craving for tastes... Craving for tactile sensations... Craving for ideas...

"Thought directed at forms... Thought directed at sounds... Thought directed at smells... Thought directed at tastes... Thought directed at tactile sensations... Thought directed at ideas...

"Evaluation of forms... Evaluation of sounds... Evaluation of smells... Evaluation of tastes... Evaluation of tactile sensations... Evaluation of ideas seems endearing and agreeable in terms of the world. That is where, when being abandoned, this craving is abandoned. That is where, when ceasing, it ceases.

"This is called the noble truth of the cessation of stress.

DN 22
Bhikkhus, dependent on the eye and forms, eye-consciousness arises; the meeting of the three is contact; with contact as condition there arises a feeling felt as pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant. When one is touched by a pleasant feeling, if one delights in it, welcomes it, and remains holding to it, then the underlying tendency to lust lies within one. When one is touched by a painful feeling, if one sorrows, grieves and laments, weeps beating one’s breast and becomes distraught, then the underlying tendency to aversion lies within one. When one is touched by a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling, if one does not understand as it actually is the origination, the disappearance, the gratification, the danger, and the escape in regard to that feeling, then the underlying tendency to ignorance lies within one. Bhikkhus, that one shall here and now make an end of suffering without abandoning the underlying tendency to lust for pleasant feeling, without abolishing the underlying tendency to aversion towards painful feeling, without extirpating the underlying tendency to ignorance in regard to neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling, without abandoning ignorance and arousing true knowledge—this is impossible.

MN 148
:alien:
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:10 amMore jibbering and intellectual tongue waggling. One can begin by learning to view thoughts as not-self and gradually move on to contemplation of the other aggregates.
The "one" referred to above sounds like a "self". :roll:
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:10 amJust learn to meditate.
Buddhist meditation is generally empty of thoughts; such as the basics of observing each in breath & each out breath.
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:10 amNo, it isn't alien to Buddhist meditation, and if you had understood the very basics of the practice you wouldnt make such a ridiculous statement.
Sorry. Buddhist meditation is generally empty of thoughts; such as the basics of observing each in breath & each out breath.
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:10 amAnd nowhere does it ever say in the suttas nor does any Buddha Dhamma meditation teacher of any regard ever make the claim that the establishment of mindfulness results in the absence of thoughts.
It was already quoted to you. For example:
thinking & pondering a long time would tire the body. When the body is tired, the mind is disturbed; and a disturbed mind is far from concentration.' So I steadied my mind right within, settled, unified, & concentrated it. Why is that? So that my mind would not be disturbed.

MN 19
I don't say that there is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing in one of lapsed mindfulness and no alertness,

MN 118
:alien:
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:10 amOne can also verify this from immediate experience.
The immediate experience of an uncontrolled mind is not the same as the immediate experience of a mind under control.
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:10 amThinking can cease when mindfulness becomes stronger as ones practice develops, but it is present in the beginning.
No. MN 19 & MN 20 are about stopping thoughts.

MN 118 begins with observing each in & out breath.

Thoughts are generally defiled and Buddhist practise is not about the cultivation of defilements.
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:10 amAccording to the suttas, the absence of thinking or 'noble silence' begins only on attainment of the second jhana.

Vittakka - Vicara, variously translated but meaning verbal functions of the mind or thinking, are present still in the first jhana.
No. Vittakka - Vicara in jhana do not refer to ordinary verbal thoughts. The Buddha said:
thinking & pondering a long time would tire the body. When the body is tired, the mind is disturbed; and a disturbed mind is far from concentration.' So I steadied my mind right within, settled, unified, & concentrated it. Why is that? So that my mind would not be disturbed.

Unflagging persistence was aroused in me, and unmuddled mindfulness established. My body was calm & unaroused, my mind concentrated & single. Quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by vitakka & vicara.

MN 19
Vitakka & vicara in jhana refer to the conscious mind moving around subtly observing the features of the jhana factors. There is no ordinary thinking in the 1st jhana. In fact, there is no ordinary thinking in the lower levels of neighborhood concentration.

:smile:
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Re: Awareness vs Mindfulness?

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

I honestly don't think many here take you too seriously. From what I have seen your demeanor and general attitude would be a major red flag to anyone from listening to what you have to say although since you are reasonably versed in Pail (most likely since you had the advantage to speak Sinhalese I am guessing) you can serve some kind of role by giving input on Pali terms, even if often you don't understand the meaning or correct application of what you are repeating.
DooDoot wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 9:29 pm
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 12:04 pm You come across as not a meditator but merely a Pali language student.
How can the above be true when what you post is not the heart of Buddhist meditation? :roll: If thinking was the heart of Buddhist meditation, why are there suttas, such as MN 19 & 20 about eradicating thoughts, including wholesome thoughts?
No, that is wrong. MN 19 specifically talks about dividing thoughts into wholesome and unwholesome, and of abandoning unwholesome thoughts. For wholeseome thoughts he says they are part of the path that leads to Nibbana.

"The Blessed One said, "Monks, before my self-awakening, when I was still just an unawakened Bodhisatta, the thought occurred to me: 'Why don't I keep dividing my thinking into two sorts?' So I made thinking imbued with sensuality, thinking imbued with ill will, & thinking imbued with harmfulness one sort, and thinking imbued with renunciation, thinking imbued with non-ill will, & thinking imbued with harmlessness another sort....

"And as I remained thus heedful, ardent, & resolute, thinking imbued with renunciation arose in me. I discerned that 'Thinking imbued with renunciation has arisen in me; and that leads neither to my own affliction, nor to the affliction of others, nor to the affliction of both. It fosters discernment, promotes lack of vexation, & leads to Unbinding. If I were to think & ponder in line with that even for a night... even for a day... even for a day & night, I do not envision any danger that would come from it, except that thinking & pondering a long time would tire the body. When the body is tired, the mind is disturbed; and a disturbed mind is far from concentration.' So I steadied my mind right within, settled, unified, & concentrated it. Why is that? So that my mind would not be disturbed."

The Buddha here clearly states that unskillful thinking is to be dispelled and wiped from existence.
In contrast he says skillful thinking 'fosters discernment and leads to Nibbana (Unbinding)'. It has no harm, other than leading to tiredness if excessive unless it is inclined to concentration i.e the first jhana.

MN 20 likewise talks about the removal of 'unskillful thoughts.'

"When evil unskillful thoughts connected with desire, hate, and delusion arise in a bhikkhu through reflection on an adventitious object, he should, (in order to get rid of that), reflect on a different object which is connected with skill. Then the evil unskillful thoughts are eliminated; they disappear. By their elimination, the mind stands firm, settles down, becomes unified and concentrated, just within (his subject of meditation)"....

"When, indeed, bhikkhus, evil unskillful thoughts due to reflection on an adventitious object are eliminated, when they disappear, and the mind stands firm, settles down, becomes unified and concentrated just within (his subject of meditation), through his reflection on an object connected with skill, through his pondering on the disadvantages of unskillful thoughts, his endeavoring to be without attentiveness and reflection as regards those thoughts or through his restraining, subduing, and beating down of the evil mind by the good mind with clenched teeth and tongue pressing on the palate, that bhikkhu is called a master of the paths along which thoughts travel. The thought he wants to think, that, he thinks; the thought he does not want to think, that, he does not think. He has cut down craving, removed the fetter, rightly mastered pride, and made an end of suffering."


The Buddha advocates to become a 'master of the way of thoughts'.
He does not say that all thoughts must be eradicated or that the establishing mindfulness does this.
That is a misunderstanding of his teaching.
DooDoot wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 9:29 pm
Most understand mindfulness means to remember to practise the Buddhist teachings rather than to simply be aware of what you are doing (such as being aware of picking your nose or being aware of eating junk food).
Wow.
:shock: :shock: :?
Total misapprehension of the Buddha's teachings on a basic level here again sadly.
Mindfulness is being aware of what you are doing and this is very much part of the Buddha's teaching. It begins with recollection to maintain present awareness of even the smallest tasks such as eating, and continues to awareness of the most refined states of concentration. Indeed, one cannot happen easily without the other which is why so much time is spent on small chores done mindfully in monasteries.

Again from DN22 the Maha-Satipatthana sutta

The Blessed One said: “This is the direct path for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow & lamentation, for the disappearance of pain & distress, for the attainment of the right method, & for the realization of unbinding—in other words, the four establishings of mindfulness"....

“when walking, the monk discerns, ‘I am walking.’ When standing, he discerns, ‘I am standing.’ When sitting, he discerns, ‘I am sitting.’ When lying down, he discerns, ‘I am lying down.’ Or however his body is disposed, that is how he discerns it....

“And further, when going forward & returning, he makes himself fully alert; when looking toward & looking away… when flexing & extending his limbs… when carrying his outer cloak, his upper robe, & his bowl… when eating, drinking, chewing, & savoring… when urinating & defecating… when walking, standing, sitting, falling asleep, waking up, talking, & remaining silent, he makes himself fully alert."

In contrast to what you say, being aware of what you are doing is central to the establishing of mindfulness as taught by the Buddha.
DooDoot wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 9:29 pm
Buddhist meditation is generally empty of thoughts; such as the basics of observing each in breath & each out breath.
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:10 amNo, it isn't alien to Buddhist meditation, and if you had understood the very basics of the practice you wouldnt make such a ridiculous statement.
Sorry. Buddhist meditation is generally empty of thoughts; such as the basics of observing each in breath & each out breath.
This has already been explained to you with sutta references and can also be verified from personal experience and the descriptions of countless meditation monks.

Thoughts still occur when one establishes mindulness watching the breath, but such thoughts can be mindfully observed and either encouraged or discouraged depending on if they are wholesome or unwholesome.
If one wants to let go of thoughts completely one inclines the mind to concentration and the second jhana.

Directing thoughts skillfully is part of attaining the first jhana i.e one inclines such thoughts to the meditation object to support concentration.
DooDoot wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 9:29 pm
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:10 amAccording to the suttas, the absence of thinking or 'noble silence' begins only on attainment of the second jhana.

Vittakka - Vicara, variously translated but meaning verbal functions of the mind or thinking, are present still in the first jhana.
No. Vittakka - Vicara in jhana do not refer to ordinary verbal thoughts.
Nice attempt at verbal gymnastics to say that vittakka - vicara don't refer to 'ordinary thoughts' :twothumbsup:
Verbal functions of mind = a type of thinking however you want to conceptualize it.
DooDoot wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 9:29 pm Vitakka & vicara in jhana refer to the conscious mind moving around subtly observing the features of the jhana factors. There is no ordinary thinking in the 1st jhana. In fact, there is no ordinary thinking in the lower levels of neighborhood concentration.
Again, it seems despite the very clear evidence you want to try to twist things.
Numerous major translators and commentator refer to them as a type of thinking or 'verbal fabrication'.
However you want to conceive of it, it is a type of thinking even if it supports an elevated status in the first jhana.
Only in the second jhana does true thinking stop.

As I said previously the suttas are very clear on this as are many authoritative meditation monks. I'm not interested in arguing for the sake of it and trying to debate your twisting of the meaning of Pali terms and mindfulness instructions which have a general consensus meaning, from which you are significantly deviating. You can review my points for clarification and hopefully some benefit to your meditation and mindfulness will result.
Last edited by Cause_and_Effect on Wed Aug 04, 2021 2:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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