Cause_and_Effect wrote: ↑Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:23 pm
The above point 1 and 3 would be illogical. Your explanations also very clearly disprove point 3, but confirm point 4.
In Buddhism, when a mistake is made, confession is made.
I am generally able to examine Pali texts using various methods that take me lots of time but
I cannot read Pali.
Therefore, to assume I was Sinhalese and can read Pali was not factual and very imaginative.
Cause_and_Effect wrote: ↑Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:23 pmHe says that if he pondered for a long time the mind would be disturbed. None of this is in opposition to the fact that vittakka-vihara which are verbal thought formations are involved in the first jhana but not the second jhana and above. The Buddha does not specify here what levels of jhana only 'concentration' is mentioned.
Sorry but it is best to stop repeating yourself. Our respective positions have been stated. The Buddha clearly says he ended all thoughts prior to the 1st jhana.
Cause_and_Effect wrote: ↑Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:10 amAnother clueless and woefully ignorant statement. Have you ever heard of the Noble Eightfold path? Right thought is part of the path.
The path is 8 fold and not 1 fold. Right thought alone is not the Path.
Cause_and_Effect wrote: ↑Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:10 amTo say broadly that 'thinking doesn't lead to Nibbana' is a patently absurd statement. It has an important role but needs to also be transcended in advanced concentration.
The above appears to be a contradiction. In summary:
1. thinking alone cannot attain Nibbana
2. the Pali translated as "leading to" more accurately means "conducive to" or "assisting".
3. it is not absurd to say the above
4. thought is not "transcended" to attain concentration
6. thought is wiped out to attain concentration
7. in MN 19, the Buddha literally says wholesome thought is "far from concentration"
Cause_and_Effect wrote: ↑Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:10 amCan you kindly explain how according to your 'logic' cultivating frequent thoughts of renunciation are not part of the path to Nibbana?
Again, the above is a misrepresentation.
I never said thoughts of renunciation are not part of the path to Nibbana.
I said thoughts of renunciation alone cannot lead to Nibbana.
Cause_and_Effect wrote: ↑Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:10 amThis is frankly one of the worse misunderstandings of the dhamma I have yet seen.
Sorry but the above is again unsubstantiated.
Cause_and_Effect wrote: ↑Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:10 amThe Buddha is giving a means to arouse mindfulness.
No. SN 46.3 literally says to remember the Teachings is mindfulness.
MN 117 also literally says to remember to practise right view, right thought, right speech, right action & right livelihood is mindfulness.
SN 48.10 literally says mindfulness means to remember things said in the past.
Mindfulness literally means to remember.
Cause_and_Effect wrote: ↑Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:10 amIn the English language, remembering and recollecting can be used interchangeably.
So you admit mindfulness means "remembering". Very good.
Cause_and_Effect wrote: ↑Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:10 amSo it seems you have missed a large part of the purpose entirely of why the Buddha is encouraging mindful attention to all body movement and actions.
No. I have not missed the purpose.
There is no Dhamma purpose in being aware of body movements; apart from ensuring those bodily movements are appropriate to Dhamma.
The passage u quoted include the word "sampajanna". It says to have "sampajanna" towards bodily movements. "Sampajanna" is a factor of wisdom; as was shown in the beginning from the Pali.
Cause_and_Effect wrote: ↑Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:10 amNo, the translation is not wrong. You are very wrong.
No. The translation is wrong. Sampajanna does not mean to be "alert".
Cause_and_Effect wrote: ↑Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:10 amAnd none of the examples you give in any case contradict the meaning I am explaining to you and which the sutta gives.
Sorry but all of the example refute your ideas because
you said sampajanna means being aware of bodily movements, that is all. So according to you, if i am monk and i am eating like a pig, all i have to do is be aware of myself eating like a pig. I do not have to change anything.
Cause_and_Effect wrote: ↑Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:10 amAlertness, knowing, understanding of what one is doing- all are related to the establishing and maintaining of mindfulness.
Mindfulness means to remember the Teachings of the Buddha. The Pali is sati-sampajanna, which means the sati is practised first.
You are saying above the sampjanna is practised first. Now that is really funny.
To not realize this is a disastrous omission.
Cause_and_Effect wrote: ↑Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:10 amYes, one let's go of extraneous thoughts about past and future and wandering attention, and focuses and directs thought and evaluation exclusively on the meditation object or theme to keep the mind steadied and eventually attain to the first jhana.
The Buddha never said the above in SN 48.10. The above ideas about
focuses and directs thought and evaluation exclusively on the meditation object sounds like Hindu Yoga.
The Buddha taught
"letting go" is the meditation object. The Noble Disciple focuses and directs thought and evaluation exclusively onto
letting go.
Cause_and_Effect wrote: ↑Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:10 amSuffice to say, many others not only Thanissaro Bhikkhu have this approach. I'm sure you will have enjoyment finding them.
Sorry but the onus is on you to support your claims. The suttas say about right speech:
They give up lying. They’re summoned to a council, an assembly, a family meeting, a guild, or to the royal court, and asked to bear witness: ‘Please, mister, say what you know.’ Not knowing, they say ‘I don’t know.’ Knowing, they say ‘I know.’ Not seeing, they say ‘I don’t see.’ And seeing, they say ‘I see.’ So they don’t deliberately lie for the sake of themselves or another, or for some trivial worldly reason.
https://suttacentral.net/an10.211/en/sujato
Cause_and_Effect wrote: ↑Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:10 amYou appear be contradicting your earlier statements when you called vittaka- vihara 'not ordinary thinking'.
You need to say more than this when you claim what i posted misrepresented Sujato, Brahm and Buddhadasa. It appears Sujato, Brahm & Buddhadasa clearly said vitakka and vicara in any jhana do not refer to ordinary thinking.
For God's sake man, there is no such thing as "verbal formation", apart from meaning speech itself. The Pali "
vacisankhara" when referring to vitakka & vicara does not mean "verbal formation". MN 44 clearly says "vacisankhara" is the cause of speech therefore "vacisankhara"
cannot mean "verbal formation" or "verbal fabrication". The Pali dictionary correctly say
it means "
requisite condition for speech".
In summary, you appeared to not acknowledge Sujato, Brahm, Buddhadasa, etc, have said vittaka & vicara in jhana is not ordinary thinking.
Also, in summary, you did not quote any monks that support your ideas, apart from the idiosyncratic Thanissaro.