Awareness vs Mindfulness?

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
Pulsar
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Re: Awareness vs Mindfulness?

Post by Pulsar »

Cause_and _affect wrote
One can begin by learning to view thoughts as not-self and gradually move on to contemplation of the other aggregates.
What other aggregates are you talking about? The moment a contact is made with the rupa aggregate, does it not lead to feeling, perception, volition et al.
How do you learn to view thoughts as not-self? In the puthujjana every thought arises accompanied by the notion of a self. A thought arises when a contact is made.
In the ignorant person the idea of self creeps in the moment the contact is made between object and sense organ. Can you explain how this can be avoided?
You also wrote
And nowhere does it ever say in the suttas nor does any Buddha Dhamma meditation teacher of any regard ever make the claim that the establishment of mindfulness results in the absence of thoughts.
Let us forget about Buddha Dhamma meditation teachers for the moment, (for there are also error prone teachers like Ayya Khema (or has been) and Leigh B.
Have you read SN 47.42 on Origination? What does it say?
Consciousness cannot find a home by the end of that meditation. What happens to that homeless consciousness? Can you pl. explain?
You wrote
One can also verify this from immediate experience.
Have you experienced this?
You wrote
According to the suttas, the absence of thinking or 'noble silence' begins only on attainment of the second jhana.
But that is not the only method provided by the sutta pitaka, think of MN 121.
You also wrote
Directing thoughts skillfully is part of attaining the first jhana i.e one inclines such thoughts to the meditation object to support concentration.
Directing thoughts to a meditation object? does it not lock consciousness to the mind's object? Is not the point of meditation the freeing of consciousness?
Sandha sutta says only the foolish meditator meditates on an object.
https://suttacentral.net/an11.9/en/sujato
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DooDoot
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Re: Awareness vs Mindfulness?

Post by DooDoot »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:10 am I honestly don't think many here take you too seriously. From what I have seen your demeanor and general attitude would be a major red flag to anyone from listening to what you have to say although since you are reasonably versed in Pail (most likely since you had the advantage to speak Sinhalese I am guessing) you can serve some kind of role by giving input on Pali terms, even if often you don't understand the meaning or correct application of what you are repeating.
Have you ever read about Right Speech in Buddhism? Right Speech is factual. In other words:

1. I cannot read Pali
2. I am not Sinhalese
3. I understand exactly the meaning.
4. The suttas says it is a rare thing when there is understanding of the meaning.
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:10 amNo, that is wrong.
No. It is not wrong. I am not wrong. If I am not wrong it means another is wrong.
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:10 amMN 19 specifically talks about dividing thoughts into wholesome and unwholesome, and of abandoning unwholesome thoughts. For wholeseome thoughts he says they are part of the path that leads to Nibbana.
I already posted what MN 19 says. It says:

If I were to think & ponder in line with that even for a night... even for a day... even for a day & night, I do not envision any danger that would come from it, except that thinking & pondering a long time would tire the body. When the body is tired, the mind is disturbed; and a disturbed mind is far from concentration.' So I steadied my mind right within, settled, unified, & concentrated it. Why is that? So that my mind would not be disturbed."

:thinking:
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:10 amThe Buddha here clearly states that unskillful thinking is to be dispelled and wiped from existence. In contrast he says skillful thinking 'fosters discernment and leads to Nibbana (Unbinding)'. It has no harm, other than leading to tiredness if excessive unless it is inclined to concentration i.e the first jhana.
No. The Buddha never referred to any kooky "unbinding". The Buddha never ever said skilful thought "leads to Nibbana". This is merely a translation. No where anywhere in the suttas is it said Nibbana can be attained via skilful thought. MN 19 literally says skillful thinking is "far from concentration". MN 19 literally says the Buddha "stilled" or "quietened" his mind to attain the 1st jhana. :meditate:
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:10 amMN 20 likewise talks about the removal of 'unskillful thoughts.'
Please stop repeating what I have already taught you. Thanks :thanks:
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:10 am beating down of the evil mind by the good mind with clenched teeth and tongue pressing on the palate
The above is method of last resort.
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:10 amThe Buddha advocates to become a 'master of the way of thoughts'.
Irrelevant.
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:10 amHe does not say that all thoughts must be eradicated or that the establishing mindfulness does this.
MN 19 clearly says the Buddha quietened all thoughts. This has been posted now by me at least 4 times yet you appear to refuse to accept the teaching.
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:10 amThat is a misunderstanding of his teaching.
No. There is no Noble Path when thought cannot be stopped.
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:10 amMindfulness is being aware of what you are doing and this is very much part of the Buddha's teaching.
No. It has been quoted many times mindfulness means to remember or bring to mind the Buddha's teaching. To repeat:
One recollects that Dhamma and thinks it over. Whenever, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu dwelling thus withdrawn recollects that Dhamma and thinks it over, on that occasion the enlightenment factor of mindfulness is aroused by the bhikkh

https://suttacentral.net/sn46.3/en/bodhi
:candle:
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:10 amIt begins with recollection
Recollection means to remember something from the past; such as recollection of past lives.
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:10 amto maintain present awareness of even the smallest tasks such as eating, and continues to awareness of the most refined states of concentration. Indeed, one cannot happen easily without the other which is why so much time is spent on small chores done mindfully in monasteries.
No. The clear comprehension of the body means to remember to engage in appropriate bodily conduct. For example, if a monk is masturbating, this cannot be done with clear comprehension of the body because a monk is forbidden to masturbate.
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:10 amAgain from DN22 the Maha-Satipatthana sutta
More misunderstandings.

:popcorn:
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:10 am


“when walking, the monk discerns, ‘I am walking.’ When standing, he discerns, ‘I am standing.’ When sitting, he discerns, ‘I am sitting.’ When lying down, he discerns, ‘I am lying down.’ Or however his body is disposed, that is how he discerns it....

“And further, when going forward & returning, he makes himself fully alert; when looking toward & looking away… when flexing & extending his limbs… when carrying his outer cloak, his upper robe, & his bowl… when eating, drinking, chewing, & savoring… when urinating & defecating… when walking, standing, sitting, falling asleep, waking up, talking, & remaining silent, he makes himself fully alert."

In contrast to what you say, being aware of what you are doing is central to the establishing of mindfulness as taught by the Buddha.
No. The above translations is wrong. Sampajjana does not mean "fully alert". Sampajanna means to have right understanding in relation to the body; such as not chewing food too fast; not delighting in the pleasure of defecating; not walking to fast; not squatting mosquitoes; not masturbating; etc.
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:10 amThis has already been explained to you with sutta references and can also be verified from personal experience and the descriptions of countless meditation monks.
The above is bizarre. The goal of Buddhist meditation is vipassana or special seeing. It is not thinking.
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:10 amThoughts still occur when one establishes mindulness watching the breath, but such thoughts can be mindfully observed and either encouraged or discouraged depending on if they are wholesome or unwholesome.
No. The only thought in the Noble Disciple is the intention to "let go".
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:10 amIf one wants to let go of thoughts completely one inclines the mind to concentration and the second jhana.
No. Thoughts stop well before the 1st jhana.
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:10 amDirecting thoughts skillfully is part of attaining the first jhana i.e one inclines such thoughts to the meditation object to support concentration.
No. The Buddha taught the 1st jhana is reached by letting go. You appear to be teaching Hindu Yoga. The Buddha said:
"And what is the faculty of concentration? There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, making it his object to let go, attains concentration, attains singleness of mind. Quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, he enters & remains in the first jhana

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
The Anapanasati Sutta says:
a monk develops mindfulness as a factor for awakening dependent on seclusion, dependent on dispassion, dependent on cessation, resulting in relinquishment.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
:buddha1:
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:10 amAgain, it seems despite the very clear evidence you want to try to twist things.
Ajahn Buddhadasa and Ajahn Brahm would exactly agree with what I wrote. If i am not "twisting things", it must be another. :roll:
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:10 amNumerous major translators and commentator refer to them as a type of thinking or 'verbal fabrication'.
No. Maybe one bizarro translator uses the term "verbal fabrication", which is wrong.
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:10 amOnly in the second jhana does true thinking stop.
No. Thanissaro appears wrong here.
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:10 amAs I said previously the suttas are very clear on this as are many authoritative meditation monks.
The above in unsubstantiated. There is unlikely many authoritative meditation monks that say there is active thinking in the 1st jhana. Why don't you quote them rather than engage in unsubstantiated speech? :thanks:
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:10 am I'm not interested in arguing for the sake of it and trying to debate your twisting of the meaning of Pali terms and mindfulness instructions which have a general consensus meaning, from which you are significantly deviating. You can review my points for clarification and hopefully some benefit to your meditation and mindfulness will result.
The above is false. Sujato below, Buddhadasa, Brahm, etc, can all be quoted saying vitakka & vicara does not mean "thinking" in the first jhana. :smile:
Sujato’s Blog

Why vitakka doesn’t mean ‘thinking’ in jhana

https://sujato.wordpress.com/2012/12/06 ... -in-jhana/
The mind noting its object is called vitakka. The mind experiencing that object is, called vicara.

https://www.dhammatalks.net/Books3/Bhik ... athing.htm
Jhana designates meditation proper, where meditator's mind is stilled from all thought, secluded from all five sense activity and is radiant with other-worldly bliss. Put bluntly, if it isn't Jhana then it isn't true Buddhist meditation!

It is impossible that such a gross activity as thinking can exist in such a refined state as Jhana. In fact, thinking ceases a long time prior to Jhana. In Jhana, vitakka and vicar a are both sub-verbal and so don't qualify as thought. Vitakka is the sub-verbal movement of the mind back into bliss. Vicara is the sub-verbal movement of mind that holds onto the bliss.

https://www.dhammatalks.net/Books/Ajahn ... Jhanas.htm
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Cause_and_Effect
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Re: Awareness vs Mindfulness?

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

DooDoot wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 5:39 am Have you ever read about Right Speech in Buddhism? Right Speech is factual. In other words:

1. I cannot read Pali
2. I am not Sinhalese
3. I understand exactly the meaning.
4. The suttas says it is a rare thing when there is understanding of the meaning.
The above point 1 and 3 would be illogical.

Your explanations also very clearly disprove point 3, but confirm point 4.
DooDoot wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 5:39 am
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:10 amMN 19 specifically talks about dividing thoughts into wholesome and unwholesome, and of abandoning unwholesome thoughts. For wholeseome thoughts he says they are part of the path that leads to Nibbana.
I already posted what MN 19 says. It says:

If I were to think & ponder in line with that even for a night... even for a day... even for a day & night, I do not envision any danger that would come from it, except that thinking & pondering a long time would tire the body. When the body is tired, the mind is disturbed; and a disturbed mind is far from concentration.' So I steadied my mind right within, settled, unified, & concentrated it. Why is that? So that my mind would not be disturbed."
He says that if he pondered for a long time the mind would be disturbed.
None of this is in opposition to the fact that vittakka-vihara which are verbal thought formations are involved in the first jhana but not the second jhana and above. The Buddha does not specify here what levels of jhana only 'concentration' is mentioned.
DooDoot wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 5:39 am
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:10 amThe Buddha here clearly states that unskillful thinking is to be dispelled and wiped from existence. In contrast he says skillful thinking 'fosters discernment and leads to Nibbana (Unbinding)'. It has no harm, other than leading to tiredness if excessive unless it is inclined to concentration i.e the first jhana.
The Buddha never ever said skilful thought "leads to Nibbana". This is merely a translation. No where anywhere in the suttas is it said Nibbana can be attained via skilful thought.
Another clueless and woefully ignorant statement.
Have you ever heard of the Noble Eightfold path?
Right thought is part of the path.
MN 19 literally talks about how thoughts of renunciation are beneficial .
What do you think we are doing now, other than thinking about the dhamma?

To say broadly that 'thinking doesn't lead to Nibbana' is a patently absurd statement. It has an important role but needs to also be transcended in advanced concentration.

Can you kindly explain how according to your 'logic' cultivating frequent thoughts of renunciation are not part of the path to Nibbana?
DooDoot wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 5:39 am
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:10 amThe Buddha advocates to become a 'master of the way of thoughts'.
Irrelevant.
Ah yes, pick and choose when to heed the Buddha and when not to with selective interpretation.
I'm not going to post yet again for you here the simile of the dhamma as a wrongly grasped snake.

Or course, for someone who doesn't understand the pivotal role of thoughts on the path, calling the Buddha's statement 'irrelevent' may be expected.
DooDoot wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 5:39 am
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:10 amMindfulness is being aware of what you are doing and this is very much part of the Buddha's teaching.
No. It has been quoted many times mindfulness means to remember or bring to mind the Buddha's teaching. To repeat:
One recollects that Dhamma and thinks it over. Whenever, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu dwelling thus withdrawn recollects that Dhamma and thinks it over, on that occasion the enlightenment factor of mindfulness is aroused by the bhikkh

https://suttacentral.net/sn46.3/en/bodhi
This is frankly one of the worse misunderstandings of the dhamma I have yet seen.
The Buddha is giving a means to arouse mindfulness. He also gives examples of recollecting the devas as another means. It does not mean that bringing to mind the Buddha or Devas specifically is the only way to arouse mindfulness.
DooDoot wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 5:39 am
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:10 amIt begins with recollection
Recollection means to remember something from the past; such as recollection of past lives.
In the English language, remembering and recollecting can be used interchangeably.
DooDoot wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 5:39 am
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:10 amto maintain present awareness of even the smallest tasks such as eating, and continues to awareness of the most refined states of concentration. Indeed, one cannot happen easily without the other which is why so much time is spent on small chores done mindfully in monasteries.
No. The clear comprehension of the body means to remember to engage in appropriate bodily conduct. For example, if a monk is masturbating, this cannot be done with clear comprehension of the body because a monk is forbidden to masturbate.
So it seems you have missed a large part of the purpose entirely of why the Buddha is encouraging mindful attention to all body movement and actions.
DooDoot wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 5:39 am
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:10 am


“when walking, the monk discerns, ‘I am walking.’ When standing, he discerns, ‘I am standing.’ When sitting, he discerns, ‘I am sitting.’ When lying down, he discerns, ‘I am lying down.’ Or however his body is disposed, that is how he discerns it....

“And further, when going forward & returning, he makes himself fully alert; when looking toward & looking away… when flexing & extending his limbs… when carrying his outer cloak, his upper robe, & his bowl… when eating, drinking, chewing, & savoring… when urinating & defecating… when walking, standing, sitting, falling asleep, waking up, talking, & remaining silent, he makes himself fully alert."

In contrast to what you say, being aware of what you are doing is central to the establishing of mindfulness as taught by the Buddha.
No. The above translations is wrong. Sampajjana does not mean "fully alert". Sampajanna means to have right understanding in relation to the body; such as not chewing food too fast; not delighting in the pleasure of defecating; not walking to fast; not squatting mosquitoes; not masturbating; etc.
No, the translation is not wrong. You are very wrong. And none of the examples you give in any case contradict the meaning I am explaining to you and which the sutta gives.
Alertness, knowing, understanding of what one is doing- all are related to the establishing and maintaining of mindfulness.

To not realize this is a disastrous omission.
DooDoot wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 5:39 am
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:10 am Thoughts still occur when one establishes mindulness watching the breath, but such thoughts can be mindfully observed and either encouraged or discouraged depending on if they are wholesome or unwholesome.
No. The only thought in the Noble Disciple is the intention to "let go".
Wrong. Such overly simplistic approaches wont get you very far.
DooDoot wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 5:39 am
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:10 amDirecting thoughts skillfully is part of attaining the first jhana i.e one inclines such thoughts to the meditation object to support concentration.
No. The Buddha taught the 1st jhana is reached by letting go.
"And what is the faculty of concentration? There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, making it his object to let go, attains concentration, attains singleness of mind. Quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, he enters & remains in the first jhana

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Yes, one let's go of extraneous thoughts about past and future and wandering attention, and focuses and directs thought and evaluation exclusively on the meditation object or theme to keep the mind steadied and eventually attain to the first jhana.
DooDoot wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 5:39 am
The above in unsubstantiated. There is unlikely many authoritative meditation monks that say there is active thinking in the 1st jhana. Why don't you quote them rather than engage in unsubstantiated speech? :thanks:
Because I do not study the dhamma as an intellectual game.
Suffice to say, many others not only Thanissaro Bhikkhu have this approach. I'm sure you will have enjoyment finding them.
DooDoot wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 5:39 am The above is false. Sujato below, Buddhadasa, Brahm, etc, can all be quoted saying vitakka & vicara does not mean "thinking" in the first jhana.

It is impossible that such a gross activity as thinking can exist in such a refined state as Jhana. In fact, thinking ceases a long time prior to Jhana. In Jhana, vitakka and vicar a are both sub-verbal and so don't qualify as thought. Vitakka is the sub-verbal movement of the mind back into bliss. Vicara is the sub-verbal movement of mind that holds onto the bliss.
You appear be contradicting your earlier statements when you called vittaka- vihara 'not ordinary thinking'.
DooDoot wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 5:39 am Vittakka - Vicara in jhana do not refer to ordinary verbal thoughts.
Must we expect your arguments and definitions change from post to post like the wind when discussing?

One can find many examples of translations of vittakka -vicara such as thought and evaluation, verbal formation etc being used to describe them. The root word is based on verbal formation or thought, you cannot change the meaning. You can call it a more refined form of thought or verbal formation of you want.
This entirely makes sense since the first Jhana is closest to the ordinary mind with prolific thinking, so a movement to focused and directed thinking initially before this is let go of is no surprise as one goes through the jhanas.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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DooDoot
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Re: Awareness vs Mindfulness?

Post by DooDoot »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:23 pm The above point 1 and 3 would be illogical. Your explanations also very clearly disprove point 3, but confirm point 4.
In Buddhism, when a mistake is made, confession is made.

I am generally able to examine Pali texts using various methods that take me lots of time but I cannot read Pali.

Therefore, to assume I was Sinhalese and can read Pali was not factual and very imaginative. :smile:
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:23 pmHe says that if he pondered for a long time the mind would be disturbed. None of this is in opposition to the fact that vittakka-vihara which are verbal thought formations are involved in the first jhana but not the second jhana and above. The Buddha does not specify here what levels of jhana only 'concentration' is mentioned.
Sorry but it is best to stop repeating yourself. Our respective positions have been stated. The Buddha clearly says he ended all thoughts prior to the 1st jhana.
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:10 amAnother clueless and woefully ignorant statement. Have you ever heard of the Noble Eightfold path? Right thought is part of the path.
The path is 8 fold and not 1 fold. Right thought alone is not the Path.
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:10 amTo say broadly that 'thinking doesn't lead to Nibbana' is a patently absurd statement. It has an important role but needs to also be transcended in advanced concentration.
The above appears to be a contradiction. In summary:

1. thinking alone cannot attain Nibbana
2. the Pali translated as "leading to" more accurately means "conducive to" or "assisting".
3. it is not absurd to say the above
4. thought is not "transcended" to attain concentration
6. thought is wiped out to attain concentration
7. in MN 19, the Buddha literally says wholesome thought is "far from concentration"
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:10 amCan you kindly explain how according to your 'logic' cultivating frequent thoughts of renunciation are not part of the path to Nibbana?
Again, the above is a misrepresentation.

I never said thoughts of renunciation are not part of the path to Nibbana.

I said thoughts of renunciation alone cannot lead to Nibbana.
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:10 amThis is frankly one of the worse misunderstandings of the dhamma I have yet seen.
Sorry but the above is again unsubstantiated.
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:10 amThe Buddha is giving a means to arouse mindfulness.
No. SN 46.3 literally says to remember the Teachings is mindfulness.

MN 117 also literally says to remember to practise right view, right thought, right speech, right action & right livelihood is mindfulness.

SN 48.10 literally says mindfulness means to remember things said in the past.

Mindfulness literally means to remember. :smile:
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:10 amIn the English language, remembering and recollecting can be used interchangeably.
So you admit mindfulness means "remembering". Very good. :bow:
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:10 amSo it seems you have missed a large part of the purpose entirely of why the Buddha is encouraging mindful attention to all body movement and actions.
No. I have not missed the purpose.

There is no Dhamma purpose in being aware of body movements; apart from ensuring those bodily movements are appropriate to Dhamma.

The passage u quoted include the word "sampajanna". It says to have "sampajanna" towards bodily movements. "Sampajanna" is a factor of wisdom; as was shown in the beginning from the Pali.
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:10 amNo, the translation is not wrong. You are very wrong.
No. The translation is wrong. Sampajanna does not mean to be "alert".
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:10 amAnd none of the examples you give in any case contradict the meaning I am explaining to you and which the sutta gives.
Sorry but all of the example refute your ideas because you said sampajanna means being aware of bodily movements, that is all. So according to you, if i am monk and i am eating like a pig, all i have to do is be aware of myself eating like a pig. I do not have to change anything. :roll:
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:10 amAlertness, knowing, understanding of what one is doing- all are related to the establishing and maintaining of mindfulness.
Mindfulness means to remember the Teachings of the Buddha. The Pali is sati-sampajanna, which means the sati is practised first.

You are saying above the sampjanna is practised first. Now that is really funny. :lol: :rofl: :thumbsup: :twothumbsup:

To not realize this is a disastrous omission.
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:10 amYes, one let's go of extraneous thoughts about past and future and wandering attention, and focuses and directs thought and evaluation exclusively on the meditation object or theme to keep the mind steadied and eventually attain to the first jhana.
The Buddha never said the above in SN 48.10. The above ideas about focuses and directs thought and evaluation exclusively on the meditation object sounds like Hindu Yoga.

The Buddha taught "letting go" is the meditation object. The Noble Disciple focuses and directs thought and evaluation exclusively onto letting go.
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:10 amSuffice to say, many others not only Thanissaro Bhikkhu have this approach. I'm sure you will have enjoyment finding them.
Sorry but the onus is on you to support your claims. The suttas say about right speech:
They give up lying. They’re summoned to a council, an assembly, a family meeting, a guild, or to the royal court, and asked to bear witness: ‘Please, mister, say what you know.’ Not knowing, they say ‘I don’t know.’ Knowing, they say ‘I know.’ Not seeing, they say ‘I don’t see.’ And seeing, they say ‘I see.’ So they don’t deliberately lie for the sake of themselves or another, or for some trivial worldly reason.

https://suttacentral.net/an10.211/en/sujato
:thinking:
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:10 amYou appear be contradicting your earlier statements when you called vittaka- vihara 'not ordinary thinking'.
You need to say more than this when you claim what i posted misrepresented Sujato, Brahm and Buddhadasa. It appears Sujato, Brahm & Buddhadasa clearly said vitakka and vicara in any jhana do not refer to ordinary thinking. :smile:
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:10 amverbal formation etc
For God's sake man, there is no such thing as "verbal formation", apart from meaning speech itself. The Pali "vacisankhara" when referring to vitakka & vicara does not mean "verbal formation". MN 44 clearly says "vacisankhara" is the cause of speech therefore "vacisankhara" cannot mean "verbal formation" or "verbal fabrication". The Pali dictionary correctly say it means "requisite condition for speech".
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:10 am jhanas.
In summary, you appeared to not acknowledge Sujato, Brahm, Buddhadasa, etc, have said vittaka & vicara in jhana is not ordinary thinking.

Also, in summary, you did not quote any monks that support your ideas, apart from the idiosyncratic Thanissaro. :smile:
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Re: Awareness vs Mindfulness?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:23 pm [One can find many examples of translations of vittakka -vicara such as thought and evaluation, verbal formation etc being used to describe them. The root word is based on verbal formation or thought, you cannot change the meaning
In terms of Jhanas the suttas use the words in terms of wholesome intentions. In Jhana they are intentions rather than ordinary thinking, which is opposed to the stillness of the Jhanas. You can’t find what a word means simply by looking at its roots. You also need to see how it’s actually used.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Re: Awareness vs Mindfulness?

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Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 10:20 pm In terms of Jhanas the suttas use the words in terms of wholesome intentions. In Jhana they are intentions rather than ordinary thinking, which is opposed to the stillness of the Jhanas. You can’t find what a word means simply by looking at its roots. You also need to see how it’s actually used.
Its not a scholarly matter. Its a matter of certain individuals who are claiming to have attained jhana.
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Re: Awareness vs Mindfulness?

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 10:20 pm
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:23 pm [One can find many examples of translations of vittakka -vicara such as thought and evaluation, verbal formation etc being used to describe them. The root word is based on verbal formation or thought, you cannot change the meaning
In terms of Jhanas the suttas use the words in terms of wholesome intentions. In Jhana they are intentions rather than ordinary thinking, which is opposed to the stillness of the Jhanas. You can’t find what a word means simply by looking at its roots. You also need to see how it’s actually used.
Yes, they are not the usual thoughts. But turning the usual wandering day dreaming thoughts into directed and sustained thoughts and evaluation of the meditation object fits this translation.

This is the approach Thannissaro is taking and when one practices it very clearly helps sustain the mind to the breath (if that is ones object) and leads to singleness.
The attention is directed to the breath and examining it. The thoughts which will still be occuring in the beginning, instead of being about anything and pulling the mind away from the object are directed to the breath also so circle the attention and accompany it thus helping sustain attention, not hindering it. This is Vittaka-Vicara.

As one continues, eventually these supporting thoughts become lesser and fall away as the mind becomes more unified into the jhana. They may be present in some slight form though even if they are not much or almost 'pre verbal' until one reaches the second jhana.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Re: Awareness vs Mindfulness?

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Cause_and_Effect wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 1:20 am This is the approach Thannissaro is taking and when one practices it very clearly helps sustain the mind to the breath (if that is ones object) and leads to singleness. The attention is directed to the breath and examining it.
The above is merely a theory that does not work. Attention directed to the breath cause the breath to calm and an inability to examine it. The Buddha's Path is one of abandonment of such wilfulness.
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Re: Awareness vs Mindfulness?

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Cause_and_Effect wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:23 pm You appear be contradicting your earlier statements when you called vittaka- vihara 'not ordinary thinking'.
It appears Thanissaro has similar verbal comprehension issues as his followers. Thanissaro said:
Thanissaro wrote:So directed thought and evaluation really do mean thinking about things. They’re not just an unfortunate wobbling of the mind, as one teacher once described them. They serve a real purpose in getting the mind into concentration and keeping it there. They also help take the mind to higher levels of concentration, when you use them to analyze a particular level of concentration to see what’s still causing unnecessary stress in that level, so that you can drop the cause. And they help to protect the mind if it slips off and starts getting into what Ven. Ananda called the jhana of anger, the jhana of lust, or the jhana of fear. These are kinds of jhana, but when you evaluate the effect they’re having on the mind, you realize that they’re not on the right path.

https://www.dhammatalks.org/books/Medit ... n0033.html
However, the teacher Thanissaro obviously refers to above said:
Brahmavamso wrote:The “Wobble" (Vitakka and Vicara). All Jhanas are states of unmoving bliss, almost. However, in the First Jhana, there is some movement discernible. I call this movement the "wobble" of First Jhana. One is aware of great bliss, so powerful it has subdued completely the part of the ego that wills and does. In Jhana, one is on automatic pilot, as it were, with no sense of being in control. However, the bliss is so delicious that it can generate a small residue of attachment [apprehension]. The mind, not the doer, instinctively grasps at [apprehends] the bliss. Because the bliss of First Jhana is fuelled by letting go, such involuntary grasping weakens the bliss. Seeing [evaluating] the bliss weaken, the mind automatically lets go of its grasping and the bliss increases in power again. The mind then grasps [apprehends; takes interest] again, then lets go again.

Such subtle involuntary movement gives rise to the wobble of First Jhana.

This wobble is, in fact, the pair of First Jhana factors called vitakka and vicara. Vicara is the involuntary grasping [apprehending; taking interest in] of bliss vitakka is the automatic movement back into bliss. Some commentators explain the pair, vitakka and vicara as “initial thought" and “sustained thought." While in other contexts this pair can refer to thought, in Jhana they certainly mean something else.

https://www.dhammatalks.net/Books/Ajahn ... Jhanas.htm
We can note above that Ajahn Brahm's description is not devoid of "wisdom" or "evaluation", as Thanissaro asserts. One would imagine a mind with concentration would discern what Ajahn Brahm has written rather than misrepresent Ajahn Brahm.

The above said, an apparent issue with Thanissaro's translation of "vicara" as "evaluation" is it appears the word for this in Pali would be "pa-vicara", as found in SN 46.3 and many other suttas about Dhammavicaya:
SN 46.3 wrote:As they live mindfully in this way they investigate, explore and inquire into that teaching with wisdom.

So tathā sato viharanto taṁ dhammaṁ paññāya pavicinati pavicarati parivīmaṁsamāpajjati.

https://suttacentral.net/sn46.3/en/sujato
Note: the prefix "pa" is an intensifier, describing the "forward motion" Thanissaro appears to be asserting.

That the suttas use the word "vicara" (often literally meaning "wander") instead of "pavicara" appears to rule out Thanissaro's translation of "evaluation".

Without any definitive sutta analysis, it appears, on the face value of the current hypothesis, Thanissaro was & is wrong.

:smile:
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Re: Awareness vs Mindfulness?

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

The terms Vitakka-Vicara can be explained and reliably translated to mean directed thought and evaluation.

I have yet to see a derivation from Pali that translates the terms as 'wobble'.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Re: Awareness vs Mindfulness?

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Cause_and_Effect wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 6:59 am The terms Vitakka-Vicara can be explained and reliably translated to mean directed thought and evaluation.
Sorry but the above is definitely unsubstantiated and therefore lacking any credibility.
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 6:59 amI have yet to see a derivation from Pali that translates the terms as 'wobble'.
If you read the suttas, you might learn what may possibly be the root word literally means to "wander". :roll:
Wander the world without obligation.

Pannabhāra anaṇa vicara loke;

https://suttacentral.net/sn11.17/en/sujato
vicarati
vi + car + a
goes about; wanders

vicāreti; pp. vicarita, vicārita & viciṇṇa. Cp anu˚.

vicāreti
vi + car + e
thinks over; manages; plans; administers

https://suttacentral.net/define/vicarati
At least in SN 46.3, there it is not spelt with an "ā". Maybe the Pali gurus can help here. :smile:

We civilly & objectively discussed the matter here.
Last edited by DooDoot on Thu Aug 05, 2021 7:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Awareness vs Mindfulness?

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DooDoot wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 7:48 am
vicarati
vi + car + a
goes about; wanders

vicāreti; pp. vicarita, vicārita & viciṇṇa. Cp anu˚.

vicāreti
vi + car + e
thinks over; manages; plans; administers

https://suttacentral.net/define/vicarati
At least in SN 46.3, there it is not spelt with an "ā". Maybe the Pali gurus can help here. :smile:

We civilly & objectively discussed the matter here.
Even when the derivation is "vi + cāra", it appears to also include the meaning "wandering":
cāra
masculine
going, going about; grazing; going about (one’s life), behavior
a spy, a secret agent; a scout

https://suttacentral.net/define/c%C4%81ra
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Re: Awareness vs Mindfulness?

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

You are free to practice 'wobbling' if that is your interpretation.

Others will direct thought and attention to the meditation theme and evaluate, until the mind settles into jhana.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Re: Awareness vs Mindfulness?

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Cause_and_Effect wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 8:21 am You are free to practice 'wobbling' if that is your interpretation.

Others will direct thought and attention to the meditation theme and evaluate, until the mind settles into jhana.
Wobble is not something practised; just like a jhana nimitta is not something practised or created by wilfulness. Basically a puthujjana has not yet gone beyond exercising the wilfulness of the self. The Buddha said the Noble Disciple makes letting go the object. :meditate:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Awareness vs Mindfulness?

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Cause_and_Effect wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 8:21 am until the mind settles into jhana.
The suttas say many lofty things about jhana, such as:
When tranquillity is developed, what purpose does it serve? The mind is developed. And when the mind is developed, what purpose does it serve? Passion [lust] is abandoned.

https://suttacentral.net/an2.21-31/en/thanissaro
But when I saw as it actually was with right discernment that sensuality is of much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks, and I had attained a rapture & pleasure apart from sensuality, apart from unskillful mental qualities, or something more peaceful than that, that was when I claimed that I could not be tempted by sensuality.

MN 14
Take another case of a mendicant who has fulfilled their ethics, but has limited immersion and wisdom. They break some lesser and minor training rules, but are restored. Why is that? Because I don’t say they’re incapable of that. But they’re constant and steady in their precepts regarding the training rules that are fundamental, befitting the spiritual path. They keep the rules they’ve undertaken. With the ending of three fetters, and the weakening of greed, hate, and delusion, they’re a once-returner. They come back to this world once only, then make an end of suffering.

Take another case of a mendicant who has fulfilled their ethics and immersion, but has limited wisdom. They break some lesser and minor training rules, but are restored. Why is that? Because I don’t say they’re incapable of that. But they’re constant and steady in their precepts regarding the training rules that are fundamental, befitting the spiritual path. They keep the rules they’ve undertaken. With the ending of the five lower fetters they’re reborn spontaneously. They are extinguished there, and are not liable to return from that world.

https://suttacentral.net/an3.86/en/sujato
In short, it appears the suttas say a mind that has fulfilled the jhana development is a non-returner & cannot be tempted by sensuality. I think this is the ultimate truth about the reality of jhana. :meditate:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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