rooting ignorance totally

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
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confusedlayman
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rooting ignorance totally

Post by confusedlayman »

In many suttas, ignorance or underlying tendency is rooted from its roots or based for ever is spoken....

if that happens, then arhantship is attained.

to root ignorance totally finally, is jhana is needed followed by vipasanna after emerging from 4th as basic? because dry insight is not working for me.
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
SteRo
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Re: rooting ignorance totally

Post by SteRo »

confusedlayman wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 11:54 am to root ignorance totally finally, is jhana is needed followed by vipasanna after emerging from 4th as basic? because dry insight is not working for me.
Insight needs absence of hindrances which is the basis for all kinds of concentration. So when hindrances are absent there is always a natural minimum extent of concentration even if no concentration has been intended. Thus insight is always conjoined with a certain extent of concentration. Some say that the minimum extent of concentration needed is jhana and some say otherwise.
But one insight does not necessarily destroy ignorance totally which is indicated by the four stages of awakening.
Cleared. αδόξαστος.
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confusedlayman
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Re: rooting ignorance totally

Post by confusedlayman »

SteRo wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 12:12 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 11:54 am to root ignorance totally finally, is jhana is needed followed by vipasanna after emerging from 4th as basic? because dry insight is not working for me.
Insight needs absence of hindrances which is the basis for all kinds of concentration. So when hindrances are absent there is always a natural minimum extent of concentration even if no concentration has been intended. Thus insight is always conjoined with a certain extent of concentration. Some say that the minimum extent of concentration needed is jhana and some say otherwise.
But one insight does not necessarily destroy ignorance totally which is indicated by the four stages of awakening.
Since you are working on conceit, if you want to escape conceit permanently instead of temporarily, what do you do?
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
SteRo
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Re: rooting ignorance totally

Post by SteRo »

confusedlayman wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 12:46 pm
SteRo wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 12:12 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 11:54 am to root ignorance totally finally, is jhana is needed followed by vipasanna after emerging from 4th as basic? because dry insight is not working for me.
Insight needs absence of hindrances which is the basis for all kinds of concentration. So when hindrances are absent there is always a natural minimum extent of concentration even if no concentration has been intended. Thus insight is always conjoined with a certain extent of concentration. Some say that the minimum extent of concentration needed is jhana and some say otherwise.
But one insight does not necessarily destroy ignorance totally which is indicated by the four stages of awakening.
Since you are working on conceit, if you want to escape conceit permanently instead of temporarily, what do you do?
This section of the forum is the Theravada insight section and in Theravada there are those who advocate jhana+insight and those who advocate so called 'dry insight'. What I have expressed is simply that even in the context of 'dry insight' insight isn't possible in the context of the presence of sensual desire (kamacchanda), ill-will (vyapada), sloth and drowsiness (thina-middha), restlessness and worry (uddhacca-kukkucca) and/or doubt (vicikiccha).
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Re: rooting ignorance totally

Post by DooDoot »

confusedlayman wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 11:54 am to root ignorance totally finally, is jhana is needed followed by vipasanna after emerging from 4th as basic?
yes.. that is why the 8 fold path includes four jhanas
confusedlayman wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 11:54 ambecause dry insight is not working for me.
i doubt dry insight can work for anyone
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Nobodyisspecial
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Re: rooting ignorance totally

Post by Nobodyisspecial »

These are all pretty good comments. First

1) can ignorance of jhana uproot the ignorance of unenlightenment? I don't think so.

2) vipassana can be without absorption and still acquire wisdom but can dry insight enable the enlightened state of cessation of consciousness or nibbana?

3) dry insight is suppose to lead to absorption to allow states leading to enlightenment. Hence if absorption does not lead to "working for you" to transcend attachment and erradicate ignorance that leads to the elimination of suffering, you are not following the eightfold path.
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