What are your ideas about Pa Auk method ?

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Dhammanando
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Re: What are your ideas about Pa Auk method ?

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frank k wrote: Sat Mar 16, 2019 3:06 pm Bhante,
What I mean about Ajahn Brahm , Pa Auk Sayadaw, and VRJ (vism. redefinition of jhana) "working",
is that it is a samadhi/samatha training system that develops samadhi and samatha.
Thanks for the elaboration.
Anabhirati kho, āvuso, imasmiṃ dhammavinaye dukkhā, abhirati sukhā.

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Re: What are your ideas about Pa Auk method ?

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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Fri Feb 22, 2019 12:57 pm
cjmacie wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2016 12:31 pm ...In brief (he used lots of repetition, over about ½ hour), focusing on breath (at nostrils/upper lip), getting closer up to it (the object, as it gradually became nimitta), slowly, again and again, more and more deeply, closer and closer, as it seems to get larger and larger,… then, when very close, seemingly very large, as he put it "suddenly the mind falls into the nimitta; the nimitta swallows the mind." The sense is the nimitta is surrounding the mind, like a sphere.... there's no doubt it was the real McCoy :roll: – an unmistakable qualitative shift that stilled all mental motion... Consulting with U. Jagara, he readily confirmed that this was really it.
Dear SDA. Sorry to sound like a mean hard hearted party pooper but the above doesn't not sound like "jhana". Jhana is an otherworldly heavenly realm, radiant with rapture & happiness. The above account did not even mention other-worldly bliss. It probably takes 30 minutes to wait for, order & eat a meal at McDonald's. Similarly, the above sounds like McJhana. :meditate: The Buddha described jhana as follows:
“There is a world of perfect happiness, Udāyī. And there is a grounded path for realizing a world of perfect happiness.”

“Atthi kho, udāyi, ekantasukho loko, atthi ākāravatī paṭipadā ekantasukhassa lokassa sacchikiriyāyā”ti.

“It’s when a mendicant, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption.

“Idhudāyi, bhikkhu vivicceva kāmehi … pe … paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati;

https://suttacentral.net/mn79/en/sujato

There is indeed, Udāyin, a world that is exclusively happy. There is a reasoned course for realising a world that is exclusively happy.”

There is indeed, Udāyin, a world that is exclusively happy. There is a reasoned course for realising a world that is exclusively happy.As to this, Udāyin, a monk, aloof from pleasures of the senses, aloof from unskilled states of mind, enters and abides in the first meditation, which is accompanied by initial thought and discursive thought, is born of aloofness and is rapturous and joyful. By allaying initial and discursive thought, the mind subjectively tranquillised and fixed on one point, he enters and abides in the second meditation, which is devoid of initial and discursive thought, is born of concentration and is rapturous and joyful. By the fading out of rapture, he dwells with equanimity, attentive and clearly conscious, and experiences in his person that joy of which the ariyans say: ‘Joyful lives he who has equanimity and is mindful’, and he enters and abides in the third meditation. This, Udāyin, is that reasoned course for realising a world that is exclusively happy.”


https://suttacentral.net/mn79/en/horner
:alien:
frank k wrote: Sat Mar 16, 2019 3:06 pmWhat I mean about Ajahn Brahm... is that it is a samadhi/samatha training system that develops samadhi and samatha.

With their method of apanana for example,
1. if you stay with attention on the breath near the nostril area,
2. wait for visual light nimitta to appear,
3. when the nimitta becomes stable, drop the physical breath and switch to the nimitta,
4. *(f1) (and if you're pacified/relaxed enough via passaddhi-sambojjhanga and your energy channel blockages have melted sufficiently)
5. when you enter jhana with this method, people usually have a perception of diving into the nimitta, or the nimitta rushes toward them and swallows them up. Just a matter of perspective.
6. the amount of euphoric orgasmic full body bliss varies with individuals, depending on their age, health, and to what capacity and level their jhana battery is charged.
Did Ajahn Brahm really teach this? :spy:
Ajahn Brahm wrote:... when one is able to maintain an effortless awareness on the breath without break for a long period of time, when the mind has settled into such a rich awareness that the breath appears delightful. Then one is ready to set off on the journey into jhana... The way into stillness is though the pitisukha born of letting go.... The deepening of pitisukha, in turn, creates even less opportunity for effort, and so stillness grows stronger. ... If the breath disappears before the stage of the beautiful breath, then this is a case of sloth and torpor, of weak attention. One should go back to basics, strengthen present moment awareness and silence... Soon one is not aware of an in-breath, or of a beginning or middle or end of a breath. One is simply aware of a seemingly unchanging perception of breath, a single experience that hardly alters from moment to moment... When in the stage of the beautiful breath, the breath disappears, only the beauty remains.... One is aware not of nothing, but of beauty, the pitisukha without any perception of breath. ... It is just that one is now experiencing the breath through the mind sense, and not through the sense of touch.... The body has gone, but the beauty remains.
https://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/thejhanas.pdf
:alien:
budo wrote: Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:48 pm...within 10 minutes the breath will be so short that it will be one pointed in the nose region... From there the breath and body relax further leading to a pleasant abiding which allows me to sit for hours and naturally slip into jhana effortlessly.
First time i have ever heard "short" breathing leads to relaxation & jhana. The above sounds like a very unique "jhana" experience. :bow:
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Re: What are your ideas about Pa Auk method ?

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budo wrote: Sat Mar 16, 2019 3:15 pm
Can you elaborate more on this please, thank you!
I'm working on a detailed response, may take a day or two, or three.

but the quick answer, is it's like eating food.
If you're really hungry, then your body will give you lots of pleasure chemicals in the brain.
That would be sukha - bodily pleasure.

piti would be like people who get an emotional thrill or high from eating food, they get excited and feel mental and bodily pleasure from a mentally created excitement. It's all just mentally created, somanassa, but it can result in both mental and physical pleasure.

with food, you can't control how much sukkha you get from the food high - you only get those pleasure chemicals when the body needs those nutrients.

similarly, for one who generally is a fourth jhana meditator, they can't really get a classic AN 5.28 second jhana bliss bomb unless they stop meditating for a while (8 hours for example), to drain their jhana battery of energy. Then the next meditaiton, they'll get a sukha bliss bomb for 5 min, 10min, 20min, etc, however long it takes for the battery to charge back up. Then it's just a-dukkham-a-sukham after that.
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Re: What are your ideas about Pa Auk method ?

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frank k wrote: Sun Mar 17, 2019 2:58 pm
budo wrote: Sat Mar 16, 2019 3:15 pm
Can you elaborate more on this please, thank you!
I'm working on a detailed response, may take a day or two, or three.

but the quick answer, is it's like eating food.
If you're really hungry, then your body will give you lots of pleasure chemicals in the brain.
That would be sukha - bodily pleasure.

piti would be like people who get an emotional thrill or high from eating food, they get excited and feel mental and bodily pleasure from a mentally created excitement. It's all just mentally created, somanassa, but it can result in both mental and physical pleasure.

with food, you can't control how much sukkha you get from the food high - you only get those pleasure chemicals when the body needs those nutrients.

similarly, for one who generally is a fourth jhana meditator, they can't really get a classic AN 5.28 second jhana bliss bomb unless they stop meditating for a while (8 hours for example), to drain their jhana battery of energy. Then the next meditaiton, they'll get a sukha bliss bomb for 5 min, 10min, 20min, etc, however long it takes for the battery to charge back up. Then it's just a-dukkham-a-sukham after that.
I see, thank you. Looking forward to your detailed response :)
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Re: What are your ideas about Pa Auk method ?

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FYI , the problem of pa auk method is in the subject of meditation where nimitta became core practise . I learned from one of his disciples previously . Later , I found out from someone that the method resemble visualization . We should not use nimitta as our focus point . One of the Chinese Qi Gong practise also produce suchlike nimitta .
This is a kind of hallucination . If seriously develop could alter our mindset and cause delusion in extreme conditions .
It is not a reality , but secondary product .
Another problem with this method is , one needs to develop past life analysis to contemplate on dependent origination which is not inline with the Buddha's teachings .
Samatha and samadhi or jhana developed through abide on nimitta are not genuine jhana .
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Re: What are your ideas about Pa Auk method ?

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budo wrote: Sun Mar 17, 2019 3:37 pm
I see, thank you. Looking forward to your detailed response :)
read the sections, PIE and Balancing four elements

https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... hana.html
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Re: What are your ideas about Pa Auk method ?

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frank k wrote: Sun Mar 17, 2019 2:58 pmfor one who generally is a fourth jhana meditator, they can't really get a classic AN 5.28 second jhana bliss bomb unless they stop meditating for a while (8 hours for example), to drain their jhana battery of energy. Then the next meditaiton, they'll get a sukha bliss bomb for 5 min, 10min, 20min, etc, however long it takes for the battery to charge back up. Then it's just a-dukkham-a-sukham after that.
Fascinating. :spy:

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Re: What are your ideas about Pa Auk method ?

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James Tan wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2019 6:54 am .... I learned from one of his disciples previously . Later , I found out from someone that the method resemble visualization . We should not use nimitta as our focus point .
...
Q1
Did this "someone" explained to you, how, one practise rupa jhana thru kasinas?

Q2
Which teacher in Pa Auk school says that nimitta is the focus point?
cjmacie wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2016 12:31 pm ...In brief (he used lots of repetition, over about ½ hour), focusing on breath (at nostrils/upper lip), getting closer up to it (the object, as it gradually became nimitta), slowly, again and again, more and more deeply, closer and closer, as it seems to get larger and larger,… then, when very close, seemingly very large, as he put it "suddenly the mind falls into the nimitta; the nimitta swallows the mind." The sense is the nimitta is surrounding the mind, like a sphere.... there's no doubt it was the real McCoy :roll: – an unmistakable qualitative shift that stilled all mental motion... Consulting with U. Jagara, he readily confirmed that this was really it.
Anywhere there 👆 mentioned nimitta is the "focus"; or is it the 'spot'?
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Re: What are your ideas about Pa Auk method ?

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James Tan wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2019 6:54 am FYI , the problem of pa auk method is in the subject of meditation where nimitta became core practise . I learned from one of his disciples previously . Later , I found out from someone that the method resemble visualization . We should not use nimitta as our focus point . One of the Chinese Qi Gong practise also produce suchlike nimitta .
This is a kind of hallucination . If seriously develop could alter our mindset and cause delusion in extreme conditions .
It is not a reality , but secondary product .
...
Samatha and samadhi or jhana developed through abide on nimitta are not genuine jhana .
I remember ven. Nyanavimala had said,
In meditation, don’t try to develop nimittas (signs) as the Visuddhimagga (the text, ‘Path of Purification’) says, but rather see that the mind is free from nīvaraṇa (hindrances). One can then delight in the purity of mind that comes from jhāna (absorption). Jhāna is that samādhi (concentration) that has no connection with this loka.
bhantes-advice
Yet some says both ways are valid.
viewtopic.php?t=32802
:shrug:
"Bhikkhus, whatever the Tathāgata speaks, _ all that is just so and NOT otherwise."
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Re: What are your ideas about Pa Auk method ?

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thang wrote: Tue Mar 19, 2019 4:14 am
James Tan wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2019 6:54 am ...
Samatha and samadhi or jhana developed through abide on nimitta are not genuine jhana .
The opposite of that would be:
"Samatha and samadhi or jhana" developed without mind object is genuine rupa jhana! :rolleye:
That would be slipped right pass; not-unbound!
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Re: What are your ideas about Pa Auk method ?

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atipattoh wrote: Tue Mar 19, 2019 4:30 am
thang wrote: Tue Mar 19, 2019 4:14 am
James Tan wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2019 6:54 am ...
Samatha and samadhi or jhana developed through abide on nimitta are not genuine jhana .
The opposite of that would be:
"Samatha and samadhi or jhana" developed without mind object is genuine rupa jhana! :rolleye:
That would be slipped right pass; not-unbound!

Q1 : I listened to a bhikkhu , he said light nimitta meditation is in the wrong path . Why ? Because if the Theme is breathing , the corresponding mind object already shift to its Secondary by Product which is light nimitta .
Q2. Kasina meditation when develop nimitta is entirely different from nimitta arises from breathing.



Edit :

"Samatha and samadhi or jhana" developed
per Pa Auk light nimitta as mind object is not genuine rupa jhana! :rolleye:


Ps. As Thang point out though he is not certain , but don't develop jhana through nimitta .

:spy:
Liberation occurs through contemplation of arising and falling (via the dependent origination) of five aggregates not through some nimitta .
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Re: What are your ideas about Pa Auk method ?

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James Tan wrote: Tue Mar 19, 2019 7:10 am
atipattoh wrote: Tue Mar 19, 2019 4:30 am
thang wrote: Tue Mar 19, 2019 4:14 am
The opposite of that would be:
"Samatha and samadhi or jhana" developed without mind object is genuine rupa jhana! :rolleye:
That would be slipped right pass; not-unbound!

Q1 : I listened to a bhikkhu , he said light nimitta meditation is in the wrong path . Why ? Because if the Theme is breathing , the corresponding mind object already shift to its Secondary by Product which is light nimitta .
Q2. Kasina meditation when develop nimitta is entirely different from nimitta arises from breathing.



Edit :

"Samatha and samadhi or jhana" developed
per Pa Auk light nimitta as mind object is not genuine rupa jhana! :rolleye:


Ps. As Thang point out though he is not certain , but don't develop jhana through nimitta .

:spy:
Liberation occurs through contemplation of arising and falling (via the dependent origination) of five aggregates not through some nimitta .
And have you tested both approaches and attained jhana in only one?

Or neither and just theorizing?

I will give you my answer after you give me yours

Ps> the suttas say liberation occurs through a supermundane supernormal power (abhinna) which is attained in 4th jhana. The suttas also say that the perception of light arises supernormal knowledge.

So one needs both contemplation AND light

Contemplating a&p = supermundane = vipassana
Light = supernormal = samadhi
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Re: What are your ideas about Pa Auk method ?

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budo wrote: Tue Mar 19, 2019 10:42 am the suttas say liberation occurs through a supermundane supernormal power (abhinna) which is attained in 4th jhana.
Where? Thanks. Abhiññā Sutta has no special powers. Abhiññā in MN 149 has no special powers. Abhiññāpariññāpahāna Sutta has no special powers. AN 4.41, which refers to "perception of light", does not mention "abhinna". Dodgy DN 34 mentions abhinna as special powers as follows:
What six things should be realized?
Katame cha dhammā sacchikātabbā?

Six direct knowledges.
Cha abhiññā—

A mendicant wields the many kinds of psychic power: multiplying themselves and becoming one again; appearing and disappearing; going unimpeded through a wall, a rampart, or a mountain as if through space; diving in and out of the earth as if it were water; walking on water as if it were earth; flying cross-legged through the sky like a bird; touching and stroking with the hand the sun and moon, so mighty and powerful; controlling the body as far as the Brahmā realm.

https://suttacentral.net/dn34/en/sujato
But SN 12.70 says such special powers are not required for enlightenment.
“But knowing and seeing thus, do you wield the many kinds of psychic power? That is, multiplying yourselves and becoming one again; going unimpeded through a wall, a rampart, or a mountain as if through space; diving in and out of the earth as if it were water; walking on water as if it were earth; flying cross-legged through the sky like a bird; touching and stroking with the hand the sun and moon, so mighty and powerful. Do you control the body as far as the Brahmā realm?”

“No, reverend.”

“Reverend Susīma, whether you understand or not, we are freed by wisdom."

“Ājāneyyāsi vā tvaṃ, āvuso susima, na vā tvaṃ ājāneyyāsi atha kho paññāvimuttā mayan”ti.

https://suttacentral.net/sn12.70/en/sujato
:alien:
Last edited by DooDoot on Tue Mar 19, 2019 12:04 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: What are your ideas about Pa Auk method ?

Post by atipattoh »

James Tan wrote: Tue Mar 19, 2019 7:10 am
if Pa Auk were to interview you, i can predict what He is going to ask; "how many minutes can you stay with the breath (un-distracted)?" and probably thats all.

I'll ask again,
Which teacher in Pa Auk school says that nimitta is the focus point?
I learned from one of his disciples previously
Who is this teacher, did he/she, said nimitta is the focus point? Or you overheard the content of another person's interview?
How many retreats have you joined?
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Re: What are your ideas about Pa Auk method ?

Post by sentinel »

budo wrote: Tue Mar 19, 2019 10:42 am
...........
Hello budo ,

I hope you don't get it personal .
Please take note I am not criticized on Pa Auk himself and his method . I am just pointing out in response to the Topic Title asking what our idea about it .
Since you mentioned earlier in other thread that you follows sutta dhamma and vinaya , I hope ,
If you could help to show me which sutta directly teaches the Pa Auk method where without doubt it was taught by the Buddha himself ?

Thank you .
Last edited by sentinel on Tue Mar 19, 2019 4:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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