Be here now - Dhammadharo bhikkhu

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
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Mr Man
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Re: Be here now - Dhammadharo bhikkhu

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Sona Sutta: About Sona

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

With regard to silabataparamasa; Are rights and rituals abandoned or is it a belief in there intrinsic efficacy?
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robertk
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Re: Be here now - Dhammadharo bhikkhu

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Mr Man wrote: Mon May 04, 2020 12:52 pm Sona Sutta: About Sona

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

With regard to silabataparamasa; Are rights and rituals abandoned or is it a belief in there intrinsic efficacy?
MN 64
their heart is overcome and mired in misapprehension of precepts and observances,
Sīlabbataparāmāsapariyuṭṭhitena cetasā viharati sīlabbataparāmāsaparetena;
and they don’t truly understand the escape from misapprehension of precepts and observances that has arisen.
uppannassa ca sīlabbataparāmāsassa nissaraṇaṃ yathābhūtaṃ nappajānāti.
That misapprehension of precepts and observances is reinforced in them, not eliminated: it is a lower fetter.
Tassa so sīlabbataparāmāso thāmagato appaṭivinīto orambhāgiyaṃ saṃyojanaṃ.
Some outward rites would be pretty much impossible for a sotapanna I imagine.
But some of the activities they used to do - previously believing in their efficacy - might still be present, but without any underlying belief that these contribute to the path..
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Mr Man
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Re: Be here now - Dhammadharo bhikkhu

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robertk wrote: Mon May 04, 2020 1:36 pm
Mr Man wrote: Mon May 04, 2020 12:52 pm Sona Sutta: About Sona

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

With regard to silabataparamasa; Are rights and rituals abandoned or is it a belief in there intrinsic efficacy?
MN 64
their heart is overcome and mired in misapprehension of precepts and observances,
Sīlabbataparāmāsapariyuṭṭhitena cetasā viharati sīlabbataparāmāsaparetena;
and they don’t truly understand the escape from misapprehension of precepts and observances that has arisen.
uppannassa ca sīlabbataparāmāsassa nissaraṇaṃ yathābhūtaṃ nappajānāti.
That misapprehension of precepts and observances is reinforced in them, not eliminated: it is a lower fetter.
Tassa so sīlabbataparāmāso thāmagato appaṭivinīto orambhāgiyaṃ saṃyojanaṃ.
Some outward rites would be pretty much impossible for a sotapanna I imagine.
But some of the activities they used to do - previously believing in their efficacy - might still be present, but without any underlying belief that these contribute to the path..
Well I guess it depends how we define rites. Confession and Patimokha? Taking dependence. Gestures of etiquette? As I see it the problem is not with rites and it is not that rites are without purpose. It is more how one relates to them (the performance has intrinsic value). What are the rites that sotapanna could not perform?
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robertk
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Re: Be here now - Dhammadharo bhikkhu

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Along similar lines..
An unedited talk Sujin Boriharnwanaket (age 94) gave this week on zoom in English
https://groups.io/g/dsg/message/163134
ND: How panna can be accumulated? From reading or studying, or it naturally developed?
AS: Does panna want anything? No

Is there any panna at the moment of wanting to have more panna? At the moment of wanting to have more panna, wanting can accumulate panna? No.

Whenever there is wanting like how can I have more panna, how can I have more metta, How can I have more goodness in life? or can I intend to have more awareness, the unknown lobha, the unknown attachment, the clinging is there at that moment.

Because it's wanting to have the panna for me, wanting to have sati for me, wanting to have more goodness in life that will have good results for me. So, one thinks it's about following the path, but actually, it's the accumulation of more clinging to oneself, clinging to I as being the one who is less nervous but with more panna and more goodness.

Panna doesn't want anything. When panna arises, like right now, when there is understanding of what appears now, seeing now, what is seen now, hearing now, it’s no intention to be aware. There's no trying to have understanding, because that is lobha, not panna.

Could you have panna just by wanting? just want to be panna or even no matter how much you want, it is not panna. It cannot be conditioned for panna by just wanting.

Is wanting real? Would you like to have more than wanting, wishing, craving?

No matter who wants and who doesn't want, there is wanting, wishing, craving. Is it right? and is there any moment to see the value or the benefit of understanding or wanting as it is? or just want to have understanding with knowing what wanting is.

The absolute truth is that, what is there, no matter it is wanting, wishing, craving and liking, disliking. They are all real. No one can make them arise, but there are conditions to condition each different ones, all the time. This is the beginning of understand what is mean by anatta, uncontrollable. Just nothing and then something and then nothing forever, never to return. is that worthwhile to want it to just happen just for a moment very shortly and then never again, never to return at all, no matter in this life or in samsara or years ahead. It's gone completely. Is it worthwhile to have it just for a very short moment?

So, it's not just enough to understand only the words and the terms and think that we or I understand. But each word should be understood as no one, no self. They are different realities, conditioned by different conditions, just appear and disappear. So very rapidly. Therefore, we do have conditions for the arising of whatever, like now and forever, again and again and again and then gone and gone and gone, no more.

That is why, each word should be understood as letting go. For example, let go what? See, just talk about letting and what let's go and let go what, see?

Someone would say let go craving, wanting. Is it possible? and what about let go panna?

Because panna also arises and falls away, not me. So the subtlety of the teachings of the Buddha about what appears now, the absolute truth of it, it cannot be taken for just one day, two days 10 years or ten lives. but it needs more and more, Very, very deep and very subtle and understand it little by little, until there can be very firm understanding of pariyati, to be ariya sacca, later, but now it is only Dhamma and sacca but not ariya saccha yet, yet because panna is not enough to directly experience the truth of it, from very beginning to understand separate ones as different ones, as not self, little by little.

Because at moment of understanding, there must be awareness or in Pali term, sati. If we use awareness, the word awareness, people might take to be aware while one is sitting, and doing and walking and talking, but no understanding. So that cannot be awareness at level of understanding the truth of a reality. For there are many, even levels of sati and panna together.

Does anyone who just want to have sati understand the characteristics of sati?

If it's not known, how can there be the understanding the moment when it is there? And, when there's not enough understanding, there's no condition for the developed sati to be sati with intellectual understanding.

That's why, it's not just hearing but it needs the understanding after hearing whether there is understanding of the word which is heard as it is.

For example, nama dhamma and rupa dhamma. We understand the word dhamma, whatever is real, a reality. But when we use the term rupa dhamma, is there any understanding about the characteristics of rupa. But you know whether at this moment, it is rupa or it is nama? If there is no understanding who can know the differences between the two, without hearing and considering carefully, to really understand what is meant by nama and then rupa, they are different.

It takes time to understand the truth of each which is really subtle. Because, at moment of seeing, it's not the understanding of that which is seen as only a reality which can impinge on the eye base. And the seeing just sees that, no idea about tree or whatever at all.

No matter how much we take about these, 100,000 lives, it's not enough, because before Buddha enlightenment, he had parami, developed parami, how long to enlighten the truth of what he said about seeing is seeing, not thinking, not other realities, not the cetasikas which arises with seeing.

He talked for 45 years about these realities in daily life, at any moment. Because, without hearing again and again and considering again and again, it's impossible to be conditioned for samma sati, and samma dithi can arise together which experience the truth, litle by little, that's right that is another word for panna, vipassana, but people just how to do not to understand. Without understanding, it is impossible to understand the truth of whatever appears. That's why the panna, right understanding, does not want, it just understands. But when there's no understanding, it is not that reality.

It is other things beside understanding because understanding does not arise. So, the other realities cannot perform the function of understanding.

Whenever there is the idea of thinking about how can I, it indicates that there is no understanding of dhamma. Understanding Dhamma will lead to Arahataship

But now where are we? See? So far to that goal. Without understanding, it is not possible to eradicate the idea of self and to understand the truth, which now arises and falls away unknowingly, all the time.

Understanding does not get closer and closer to the nature of reality right now. So one knows that if not the direct understanding. Only hearing, considering can condition more confidence, firmer and firmer confidence on what Buddha taught. But it's not yet the exact moment of directly experienced that. Panna knows what is what, now, there is no condition to the direct understanding yet. And panna knows it. No one can condition, no one can make it at all. Only right understanding develops, just very little, very slowly from moment to moment, will lead to more and more understanding very, very little.
So now, when there is such understanding one begins to understand what is meant by khanti parami, sacca parami, adhitthāna parami, viriya parami. Without all these paramis, it is impossible to understand whatever appears now as it is.
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robertk
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Re: Be here now - Dhammadharo bhikkhu

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A discussion with Sujin Boriharnwanaket today..
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Be here now - Dhammadharo bhikkhu

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I came across an interesting passage last night when reading the Sammohavinodani, in the section discussing paṭiccasamuppāda:
923. (vi) Then there are here four methods of treating the meaning, namely, (a) the method of identity, (b) the method of diversity, (c) the method of inactivity 97 and (d) the method of appropriate nature.9K This Wheel of Existence should therefore also be known accordingly "as to the kinds of method".
924. Herein, (a) the non-interruption of the continuity thus: "With ignorance as condition, formations; with formations as condition, consciousness", just like a seed's reaching the state of a tree through the state of the shoot and so on, is called the "method of identity". One who sees this rightly abandons the annihilation view by comprehending the unbrokenness of the continuity which occurs due to the linking of cause with fruit. And one who sees it wrongly clings to the eternity view by apprehending identity in the non-interruption of the continuity which occurs (pavattamänassä) through the linking of cause with fruit.
925. (b) But the defining of the characteristics of ignorance and so on is called "the method of diversity". One who sees this rightly abandons the eternity view by seeing the arising of constantly new [states]; and one who sees it wrongly clings to the annihilation view by apprehending individual diversity in what happens in a single continuity as though it were a broken continuity.
926. (c) The absence of such activity on the part of ignorance as: 'Formations must be made to arise by me/ or on the part of formations thus: 'Consciousness [must be made to arise] by us' and so on, is called the "method of inactivity". One who sees this rightly abandons the self view by comprehending the absence of a doer; one who sees it wrongly clings to the no-action view" because he does not perceive that, though there is no activity, the causative function of ignorance, etc. is established as a law by their respective natures.
927. (d) But the production of only formations, etc. respectively and no others, with ignorance, etc. as the respective reasons, |199] like that of curd, etc. with milk, etc. as the respective reasons, is called the "method of appropriate nature". One who sees this rightly abandons the no-cause view and the no-action view through comprehending how the fruit accords with its condition. One who sees it wrongly, by apprehending it as non production of anything from anything, instead of apprehending the occurrence of the fruit in accordance with its condition, clings both to the no-cause view and the theory of determinism.
Part of paññā then is understanding that there is no "doer". There is no "let my mindfulness be thus" or "let my effort be thus". There is only the arising or ceasing of dhammas according to cause and condition. As Right View is the condition for Right Effort, Right Mindfulness and Right Concentration the cause and condition for the arising of Right View must be there for Right View to arise and, ultimately, for awakening to occur. There is no "I will now have Right View". It must arise due to the necessary conditions. The necessary conditions being:

“Monks, there are these two conditions for the arising of right view. Which two? The voice of another and appropriate attention. These are the two conditions for the arising of right view.”

It is then a mistake to think "today I will sit and will make my mind be thus". First there needs to be learning of the Dhamma. Once the Dhamma has been learnt, then the conditions are there for Right View to arise. When Right View arises, so do the other factors of the path:
Bhikkhus, just as the dawn is the forerunner and first indication of the rising of the sun, so is right view the forerunner and first indication of wholesome states.

For one of right view, bhikkhus, right intention springs up. For one of right intention, right speech springs up. For one of right speech, right action springs up. For one of right action, right livelihood springs up. For one of right livelihood, right effort springs up. For one of right effort, right mindfulness springs up. For one of right mindfulness, right concentration springs up. For one of right concentration, right knowledge springs up. For one of right knowledge, right deliverance springs up.
https://suttacentral.net/an10.121/en/sujato

When then in sitting meditation, there is no "let me mind be aware of X". Rather, when the conditions are right Right View will be there. When Right View is there Right Effort, Right Mindfulness and Right Concentration will be there. When these conditions are there it is then natural that the meditator will begin to see the 4 elements, then the immaterial states and then their characteristics and so on. Mere dhammas arising and ceasing according to conditions. No doer of the meditation is found. To think "I will sit and have such and such a state" is to have Wrong View and from that Wrong Effort, Wrong Mindfulness and Wrong Concentration.

Just some thoughts I had last night, based on this commentary passage.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Re: Be here now - Dhammadharo bhikkhu

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Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 2:03 pm
Just some thoughts I had last night, based on this commentary passage.
Yes. all good IMHO. In the end one comes to the conclusion that there really is no self, only elements performing their functions. But like a well staged puppet show it deceives us.
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Re: Be here now - Dhammadharo bhikkhu

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robertk
The mental and material are really here,
But here there is no human being to be found,
For it is void and merely fashioned like a doll—
Just suffering piled up like grass and sticks
Vism.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Re: Be here now - Dhammadharo bhikkhu

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robertk wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 2:27 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 2:03 pm
Just some thoughts I had last night, based on this commentary passage.
Yes. all good IMHO. In the end one comes to the conclusion that there really is no self, only elements performing their functions. But like a well staged puppet show it deceives us.
why that element can't be aware what he/she/it is doing?

there are sayings like 'taking things into heart/soul' it is literal, something happens with the heart after seeing or hearing, not every sensation penetrates the heart, but certain will and they are prolly mental. It is something not material.
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Re: Be here now - Dhammadharo bhikkhu

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Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 2:03 pm Part of paññā then is understanding that there is no "doer". There is no "let my mindfulness be thus" or "let my effort be thus". There is only the arising or ceasing of dhammas according to cause and condition.
There is other kind of reason for that - you can't go and start practice, because you would then practice limbs to program yet another behavior(5 senses). The reason to not look, not sense, not see, not go is to disconnect from the limbs and focus on the seeing, hearing (dhamma) and this is where the heat/intent arises and then you will pay attention(manasikara) to what you hear and then that what you hear is registered it will be permanent, you may go by the reasoning you got from early childhood and still applies at an old age.

if these steps are done the thing is abandoned. If you then hear, see this(what where registered) it will arise from where it were stored/registered and is abandoned again.. but not in a way you can't pick it up again but it would be better if you would have evolved meanwhile.
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 2:03 pm There is only the arising or ceasing of dhammas according to cause and condition.
When you are seeing, hearing.. heat arises, it is an initial reason to start pay attention to what is heard. Hence attractive(good) things, brain has mechanics to check several times if the thing is good or not and if not then it is abandoned and registered as abandoned without learning, you can access even these things but are abandoned status of possible why i didn't notice it before, there are tons of not so sensual sensations what you haven't noticed before but are there waiting to be noticed.
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 2:31 pm The mental and material are really here,
But here there is no human being to be found,
For it is void and merely fashioned like a doll—
Just suffering piled up like grass and sticks
you are taking it with a weird take. If there is self or no self, what it going to change for you? Suttas recognize there is human being what actually is capable to understand craving, intents, it is not only processes like no-selfers like to proclaim that there is no control(restraint) possible.. like the control is something bad what enforces self view.
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Re: Be here now - Dhammadharo bhikkhu

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robertk wrote: Sat May 02, 2020 10:09 am This is more or less how I see the development of satipatthana vipassana..
Thanks, very useful to understanding mindfulness.

I'm still trying to understand what should I do to follow the path as taught by the Buddha. I was taught to meditate daily among other activities (like learning the teachings, being generous, doing no harm, developing good-will, compassion, rejoice, and equanimity, and other virtuous deeds). All good advice which I hope to develop more and more as best as I can but the "meditate!" part is what I'm not sure yet. There's people who suggest to meditate daily but I was also advised to learn the teachings and develop right view first, to establish Sati and to get rid of unwholesome states and cultivate wholesome ones so I can, after that, develop a fruitful meditation practice.

So it seems doing formal ("sit") mindfulness meditation daily comes later in the practice, first it's Sati which needs to be developed and this thread brings a clear explanation on how Sati is developed.

Still, I wonder if some kind of mindfulness meditation can help to develop mindfulness. It's so common to get advised to meditate that I need to reread this whole thread. I'm still struggling with the concepts of Sati, Satipatthana and Anapanasati.

Thanks for the thread.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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robertk
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Re: Be here now - Dhammadharo bhikkhu

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mjaviem wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 9:07 pm
Thanks, very useful to understanding mindfulness.

I'm still trying to understand what should I do to follow the path as taught by the Buddha. I was taught to meditate daily among other activities (like learning the teachings, being generous, doing no harm, developing good-will, compassion, rejoice, and equanimity, and other virtuous deeds). All good advice which I hope to develop more and more as best as I can but the "meditate!" part is what I'm not sure yet. T
I think it is uncommon to come across someone like you who is taking the time to learn about what the right path is - before leaping in. When I first decided to try to follow this path it was motivated by desire and ignorance, and those factors actually lead me away from that very path.

The virtuous deeds you mention can be grouped as Parami and are really essential provisions for this arduous, exciting journey. Here is book from my website: http://www.abhidhamma.org/development/w ... -sujin.pdf

As regards meditation: I find many Buddhist are looking for some technique they can follow. They think if they find the one to suit their character- or even better identify the actual 'real' technique that the Buddha taught, then all will gradually be revealed and they will pass through various signposts on the way to relatively fast attainments. If these signposts are then confirmed by a 'teacher' then all the better. The degree of attachment that this engenders is significant.

This brings me to another point - that of the vanceti dhammas, the cheating dhammas. These are imposters that appear to be kusala (wholesome) when they are actually unwholesome. And we all have these, they can be subtle or gross. For example we mistake attachment (unwholesome) for some aspect of the Dhamma for saddha, confidence in the Dhamma - they are very different.
Anyway let me know if you want to discuss more. Here are some other threads:
viewtopic.php?t=15952

viewtopic.php?f=19&t=37213

viewtopic.php?f=18&t=37085
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Re: Be here now - Dhammadharo bhikkhu

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mikenz66 wrote: Sat May 02, 2020 10:00 pm ... why deciding to "read/listen to the Dhamma, and pay attention to how Dhamma plays out in everyday life" (my simplistic summary of Robert's approach) is fundamentally different from "read/listen to the Dhamma and pay attention to how it plays out in meditation"...
Perhaps "in everyday life" you develop "mundane right view", the beginning of the path where you know of the truth and "in meditation" you develop "supramundane right view", the end of the path where you actually see the truth...
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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Re: Be here now - Dhammadharo bhikkhu

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Sujin Boriharnwanaket talking about what is practice.
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