Why Satipathana Sutta does not mention verbal fabrications (Vaci Sankhara)?

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SarathW
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Why Satipathana Sutta does not mention verbal fabrications (Vaci Sankhara)?

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Why Satipathana Sutta does not mention verbal fabrications (Vaci Sankhara)?
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DooDoot
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Re: Why Satipathana Sutta does not mention verbal fabrications (Vaci Sankhara)?

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SarathW wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 9:45 pm Why Satipathana Sutta does not mention verbal fabrications (Vaci Sankhara)?
1. MN 10 does not mention vaci sankhara. However, DN 22 (Maha-Satipatthana Sutta) does mention two types of vitakka & vicara (which are the vaci sankhara), namely: (i) arising from craving; and (ii) as factors of the 1st jhana.

2. For MN 10 basic meditition, anupassi (closely watching; contemplation) meditation is without speech; therefore it appears the condition for speech (vaci sankhara) does not need to be mentioned.

3. Vaci sankhara (initial & sustained thought) is not inherently related to the arising dukkha; unlike the citta sankhara (vedana), which is the cause of the arising of citta defilements.

4. Therefore, DN 22 refers to the vaci sankhara (vitakka & vicara) arising from craving because it is the craving that is the cause of dukkha rather than vitakka & vicara alone.

5. In summary, for the Buddha, craving is the problem (rather than vitakka & vicara).

6. Also, some types of vitakka & vicara are wholesome and do not need to be immediately calmed (passambhati; per MN 118); such as the vitakka & vicara that leads to the 1st jhana.

7. Also, unlike Anapanasati Sutta, Satipatthana Sutta does not mention citta sankhara (condition for citta).
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SarathW
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Re: Why Satipathana Sutta does not mention verbal fabrications (Vaci Sankhara)?

Post by SarathW »

Thanks DD
Could you post the paragraph from DN22 relevant to my question please?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Why Satipathana Sutta does not mention verbal fabrications (Vaci Sankhara)?

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SarathW wrote: Wed Jan 20, 2021 1:00 am Could you post the paragraph from DN22 relevant to my question please?
No. I linked it already.
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SarathW
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Re: Why Satipathana Sutta does not mention verbal fabrications (Vaci Sankhara)?

Post by SarathW »

DooDoot wrote: Wed Jan 20, 2021 1:01 am
SarathW wrote: Wed Jan 20, 2021 1:00 am Could you post the paragraph from DN22 relevant to my question please?
No. I linked it already.
Could someone find that for me please?
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Re: Why Satipathana Sutta does not mention verbal fabrications (Vaci Sankhara)?

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SarathW wrote: Wed Jan 20, 2021 1:02 am Could someone find that for me please?
Click on the link provided DN 22 which goes to the relevant paragraph.
Thus spoke the Venerable Ananda, but the Blessed One answered him, saying: "What more does the community of bhikkhus expect from me, Ananda? I have set forth the Dhamma without making any distinction of esoteric and exoteric doctrine; there is nothing, Ananda, with regard to the teachings that the Tathagata holds to the last with the closed fist of a teacher who keeps some things back.
:D
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SarathW
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Re: Why Satipathana Sutta does not mention verbal fabrications (Vaci Sankhara)?

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Thanks DD. I did not notice when I click it first time.
By the way how do you do it (how do you link like that?)? (I am not a computer wizard)
So it is Dhammanupassana.
This is a common complain by many Vipassna practitioners. (unwholesome vitakka and vicara)
:D
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Re: Why Satipathana Sutta does not mention verbal fabrications (Vaci Sankhara)?

Post by DooDoot »

SarathW wrote: Wed Jan 20, 2021 1:24 am So it is Dhammanupassana.
This is a common complain by many Vipassna practitioners. (unwholesome vitakka and vicara)
It is Dhammanupassana when all four truths are seen together, causing any arising of unwholesome vitakka & vicara to quickly cease.
SarathW wrote: Wed Jan 20, 2021 1:24 am By the way how do you do it (how do you link like that?)? (I am not a computer wizard)
Press the grey wheel at SC; then activate:
View textual information
Displays information such as volume/page references, variant readings, etc.
After the above is activated, the paragraph numbers will appear in the Sujato & Bodhi translated suttas.

Then click on the paragraph number and copy the internet link in your internet browser.
Attachments
DN 22.png
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SarathW
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Re: Why Satipathana Sutta does not mention verbal fabrications (Vaci Sankhara)?

Post by SarathW »

Thanks.
Very interesting!
Thoughts about sights … thoughts about sounds … thoughts about smells … thoughts about tastes … thoughts about touches … thoughts about thoughts in the world seem nice and pleasant, and it is there that craving arises and settles.
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Re: Why Satipathana Sutta does not mention verbal fabrications (Vaci Sankhara)?

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SarathW wrote: Wed Jan 20, 2021 2:00 am Very interesting!
Maybe. However, upon reflection, I think it is possible that:

1. The vaci sankhara is vitakka & vicara.

2. However, not all vitakka & vicara is vaci sankhara.

In other words, I think possibly vaci sankhara is never mentioned in either MN 10 & DN 22.

The word "vacisankara" appears to refer to the condition for speech.

Therefore, vitakka & vicara that does not cause speech, such as the vitakka & vicara of the 1st jhana, may not be vacisnkhara.

Are there any suttas that refer to the factors of jhana as vacisankhara? :shrug:
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SarathW
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Re: Why Satipathana Sutta does not mention verbal fabrications (Vaci Sankhara)?

Post by SarathW »

The way I understand Vitakka and Vicara can lead to speech.
Only unwholesome speech named as VaciSankahra.
The way I understand the speech immediately stops when you start your meditation session. However, Vitakka and Vicara continue.
Even in first Jhana, you have wholesome Vitakka and Vicara.
It is not possible to have any verbal fabrications (wholesome or unwholesome) in first Jhana or any Jhana.

The objective of my post was to examine whether Vitakka and Vicara are mentioned in Satipathana.
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Re: Why Satipathana Sutta does not mention verbal fabrications (Vaci Sankhara)?

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SarathW wrote: Wed Jan 20, 2021 11:01 amOnly unwholesome speech named as VaciSankahra.
AN 3.23 shows the above view is wrong.

As for the term vacisankhara, it has two completely different meanings:

1. The cause of speech, as explained in MN 44. Here, vacisankharo is in nominative case and is used together with cittasankharo.

2. Verbal activity, as explained in AN 3.23. Here, vacīsaṅkhāraṃ is in accusative case (object of the verb 'abhisaṅkharoti' ) and is used together with manosaṅkhāraṃ.
SarathW wrote: Wed Jan 20, 2021 11:01 amThe objective of my post was to examine whether Vitakka and Vicara are mentioned in Satipathana.
Vacisankharo means condition for speech. It has no relevance to Satipatthana; unlike kayasankharo and cittasankhara. Kayasankharo is relevant to Satipatthana because the quality of the breath directly causes the quality (stress/lack of stress) of the body. Citta sankharo is relevant to Satipatthana because the quality of the feeling directly can cause greed, hatred & delusion to arise in the mind. But since vacisankharo only causes speech, it has no relevance to Satipatthana. While it can be realised in 1st and 2nd jhana that vitakka & vicara are disturbing compared to ekodibhāvaṃ, vitakka & vicara here are probably not vacisankharo because they do not cause speech.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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