difference between these 3 stage?

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
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confusedlayman
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difference between these 3 stage?

Post by confusedlayman »

Whats the difference between these three things?

equanimity to formations
vs
conformity knowledge
vs
nibbana glimpse?

is nibbana glimpse have no sense of self whereas others have sense of self feeling but insight wise no self?
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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DooDoot
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Re: difference between these 3 stage?

Post by DooDoot »

confusedlayman wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 4:01 pm equanimity to formations
'mental formations' can be major or minor. generally, equanimity is only possible towards minor fleeting formations.

also, the word 'formations' ('sankhara') does not always mean "mental formations"

in the context of vipassana, the word 'sankhara' means 'things constructed from other conditions' thus includes each of the five aggregates

for example, in the 4th tetrad of MN 118, the formations looked upon with equanimity are the five aggregates (rather than only fleeting minor mental formations)

i found a book that correctly says "equanimity towards formations" means not experiencing terror over the dissolution of formations
confusedlayman wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 4:01 pmconformity knowledge
conformity knowledge does not sound like equanimity to formations but sounds like seeing the Truth
confusedlayman wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 4:01 pmis nibbana glimpse have no sense of self whereas others have sense of self feeling but insight wise no self?
nibbana is the experience of peace occurring from non-attachment. therefore, in respect to glimpsing nibbana, conformity knowledge means seeing directly the cause & effect relationship that non-attachment results in experiencing nibbana.

in other words, conformity knowledge conforms with the suttas (rather than conforms with SteRo or Nagarjuna), which say in many places:
Anupādiyaṃ na paritassati, aparitassaṃ paccattaññeva parinibbāyati:

Not grasping, they’re not anxious. Not being anxious, they inwardly attain Nibbana.
for example, a stream-enterer that has mastered non-attachment & the constant dropping of craving can constantly experience (unfinal) nibbana prior to jhana and that this prior experience of nibbana (still experienced during jhana) is superior to the pleasant feelings of jhana. therefore, conformity knowledge can occur prior to jhana

a glimpse of no self can cause fear & anxiety (or "terror") to arise therefore the experience of no self may not necessarily be a glimpse of nibbana but, instead, a glimpse of hell.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: difference between these 3 stage?

Post by SteRo »

confusedlayman wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 4:01 pm Whats the difference between these three things?
Maybe you don't understand Vism because of your poor understanding of English language?
confusedlayman wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 4:01 pm equanimity to formations
Vism wrote:61. When he has discerned formations by attributing
the three characteristics to them and seeing them as
void in this way, he abandons both terror and delight,
he becomes indifferent to them and neutral, he neither
takes them as “I” nor as mine,” he is like a man who
has divorced his wife.
This coincides with knowledge acc to Vism.
confusedlayman wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 4:01 pm conformity knowledge
Vism wrote:129. He thinks, “Now the path will arise.” Equanimity
about formations, after comprehending formations as
impermanent, or as painful, or as not-self, sinks into
the life-continuum
.

Next to the life-continuum, minddoor
adverting arises making formations its object as
impermanent or as painful or as not-self according to
the way taken by equanimity about formations.

Then next to the functional [adverting] consciousness that
arose displacing the life-continuum, the first
impulsion consciousness arises making formations its
object in the same way, maintaining the continuity of
consciousness.[42] This is called the “preliminary
work.”

Next to that a second impulsion consciousness
arises making formations its object in the same way.
This is called the “access.”

Next to that [670] a third
impulsion consciousness also arises making
formations its object in the same way. This is called
“conformity.”

130. These are their individual names. But it is
admissible to call all three impulsions “repetition” or
“preliminary-work” or “access” or “conformity”
indiscriminately.


Conformity to what? To what precedes and to what
follows.
For it conforms to the functions of truth both
in the eight preceding kinds of insight knowledge and
in the thirty-seven states partaking of enlightenment
that follow.
Now comes the part corresponding with 'personal experience' kind of knowledge of conformity:
131. Since its occurrence is contingent upon
formations through [comprehending] the
characteristics of impermanence, etc., it, so to speak,
says, “Knowledge of rise and fall indeed saw the rise
and fall of precisely those states that possess rise and
fall”
and “Contemplation of dissolution indeed saw
the dissolution of precisely those states that possess
dissolution”
and “It was indeed precisely what was
terrible that appeared as terror to [knowledge of]
appearance as terror”
and “Contemplation of danger
indeed saw danger in precisely what was dangerous”

and “Knowledge of dispassion indeed became
dispassionate towards precisely that which should be
regarded with dispassion”
and “Knowledge of desire
for deliverance indeed produced desire for
deliverance from precisely what there should be
deliverance from”
and “What was reflected upon by
knowledge of reflection was indeed precisely what
should be reflected upon”
and “What was looked on
at with equanimity by equanimity about formations
was indeed precisely what should be looked on at
with equanimity.”


So it conforms to the functions of truth both
in these eight kinds of knowledge and in
the thirty-seven states partaking of enlightenment
which follow
, because they are to be reached by
entering upon it.
confusedlayman wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 4:01 pm
nibbana glimpse?

is nibbana glimpse have no sense of self whereas others have sense of self feeling but insight wise no self?
It is when "[unconditioned] nibbana [element] is contacted by the body".
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Re: difference between these 3 stage?

Post by DooDoot »

SteRo wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 9:26 am It is when "[unconditioned] nibbana [element] is contacted by the body".
the physical body cannot experience/contact nibbana. regardless, the reply above does not explain what nibbana is
SteRo wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 9:26 am sinks into the life-continuum.
;)
Then the Elder Buddhaghosa had the books written by Elder Mahinda piled up and burnt near the Great Shrine; the pile was as high as seven elephants. Now that this work was done... he went to his preceptor and cleared himself of his penance. His parents too forgave him his offences; and when they died they were reborn in the Tusita heaven. He himself, knowing that he would not live much longer, paid homage to his preceptor and went to the Great Enlightenment Tree. Foreseeing his approaching death, he considered thus: “There are three kinds of death: death as cutting off, momentary death, and conventional death. Death as cutting off belongs to those whose cankers are exhausted (and are Arahants). Momentary death is that of each consciousness of the cognitive series beginning with life-continuum consciousness, which arise each immediately on the cessation of the one preceding. Conventional death is that of all (so-called) living beings. Mine will be conventional death.” After his death he was reborn in the Tusita heaven in a golden mansion seven leagues broad surrounded with divine nymphs.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: difference between these 3 stage?

Post by confusedlayman »

SteRo wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 9:26 am
confusedlayman wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 4:01 pm Whats the difference between these three things?
Maybe you don't understand Vism because of your poor understanding of English language?
confusedlayman wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 4:01 pm equanimity to formations
Vism wrote:61. When he has discerned formations by attributing
the three characteristics to them and seeing them as
void in this way, he abandons both terror and delight,
he becomes indifferent to them and neutral, he neither
takes them as “I” nor as mine,” he is like a man who
has divorced his wife.
This coincides with knowledge acc to Vism.
confusedlayman wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 4:01 pm conformity knowledge
Vism wrote:129. He thinks, “Now the path will arise.” Equanimity
about formations, after comprehending formations as
impermanent, or as painful, or as not-self, sinks into
the life-continuum
.

Next to the life-continuum, minddoor
adverting arises making formations its object as
impermanent or as painful or as not-self according to
the way taken by equanimity about formations.

Then next to the functional [adverting] consciousness that
arose displacing the life-continuum, the first
impulsion consciousness arises making formations its
object in the same way, maintaining the continuity of
consciousness.[42] This is called the “preliminary
work.”

Next to that a second impulsion consciousness
arises making formations its object in the same way.
This is called the “access.”

Next to that [670] a third
impulsion consciousness also arises making
formations its object in the same way. This is called
“conformity.”

130. These are their individual names. But it is
admissible to call all three impulsions “repetition” or
“preliminary-work” or “access” or “conformity”
indiscriminately.


Conformity to what? To what precedes and to what
follows.
For it conforms to the functions of truth both
in the eight preceding kinds of insight knowledge and
in the thirty-seven states partaking of enlightenment
that follow.
Now comes the part corresponding with 'personal experience' kind of knowledge of conformity:
131. Since its occurrence is contingent upon
formations through [comprehending] the
characteristics of impermanence, etc., it, so to speak,
says, “Knowledge of rise and fall indeed saw the rise
and fall of precisely those states that possess rise and
fall”
and “Contemplation of dissolution indeed saw
the dissolution of precisely those states that possess
dissolution”
and “It was indeed precisely what was
terrible that appeared as terror to [knowledge of]
appearance as terror”
and “Contemplation of danger
indeed saw danger in precisely what was dangerous”

and “Knowledge of dispassion indeed became
dispassionate towards precisely that which should be
regarded with dispassion”
and “Knowledge of desire
for deliverance indeed produced desire for
deliverance from precisely what there should be
deliverance from”
and “What was reflected upon by
knowledge of reflection was indeed precisely what
should be reflected upon”
and “What was looked on
at with equanimity by equanimity about formations
was indeed precisely what should be looked on at
with equanimity.”


So it conforms to the functions of truth both
in these eight kinds of knowledge and in
the thirty-seven states partaking of enlightenment
which follow
, because they are to be reached by
entering upon it.
confusedlayman wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 4:01 pm
nibbana glimpse?

is nibbana glimpse have no sense of self whereas others have sense of self feeling but insight wise no self?
It is when "[unconditioned] nibbana [element] is contacted by the body".
So in knowledge of equnimity there is equanimity feeling...

not clinging to this equanimity feeling will reveal nibbana glimpse? this is the only step?
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Re: difference between these 3 stage?

Post by SteRo »

confusedlayman wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 10:10 am this is the only step?
C'mon you know that according to Vism panna isn't 'a one step' affair. Your thought is the more surprising as in the quote reads "these eight kinds of knowledge" and these are listed as objects of experienced conformity knowledge in quotation marks " ... ".
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Re: difference between these 3 stage?

Post by confusedlayman »

SteRo wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 10:22 am
confusedlayman wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 10:10 am this is the only step?
C'mon you know that according to Vism panna isn't 'a one step' affair. Your thought is the more surprising as in the quote reads "these eight kinds of knowledge" and these are listed as objects of experienced conformity knowledge in quotation marks " ... ".
if I hear music, how can I contemplate it?
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Re: difference between these 3 stage?

Post by SteRo »

confusedlayman wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 10:26 am
SteRo wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 10:22 am
confusedlayman wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 10:10 am this is the only step?
C'mon you know that according to Vism panna isn't 'a one step' affair. Your thought is the more surprising as in the quote reads "these eight kinds of knowledge" and these are listed as objects of experienced conformity knowledge in quotation marks " ... ".
if I hear music, how can I contemplate it?
What has this to do with the topic? Explain.
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Re: difference between these 3 stage?

Post by confusedlayman »

SteRo wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 10:29 am
confusedlayman wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 10:26 am
SteRo wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 10:22 am

C'mon you know that according to Vism panna isn't 'a one step' affair. Your thought is the more surprising as in the quote reads "these eight kinds of knowledge" and these are listed as objects of experienced conformity knowledge in quotation marks " ... ".
if I hear music, how can I contemplate it?
What has this to do with the topic? Explain.
music as object of contemplation as impermanent non self and maintaining equanimity...

acc to vism, what is object of contemplation?
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Re: difference between these 3 stage?

Post by SteRo »

confusedlayman wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 10:30 am acc to vism, what is object of contemplation?
See quote and see Vism itself. It seems you are confusing contemplation (cause) with equanimity (effect). Can you understand the English expressions of Vism at all?
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Re: difference between these 3 stage?

Post by SteRo »

Sorry that I responded to your questions but this seems to evolve into just another tiresome conversation I've had already so many with you. Meanwhile I think that it's a language issue that you have. So please learn to read and analyse and study English texts and then come back and we may have a fruitful conversation.
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Re: difference between these 3 stage?

Post by confusedlayman »

SteRo wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 10:40 am Sorry that I responded to your questions but this seems to evolve into just another tiresome conversation I've had already so many with you. Meanwhile I think that it's a language issue that you have. So please learn to read and analyse and study English texts and then come back and we may have a fruitful conversation.
if you understand vism, can u break it into simple English with real life example analogy for the question?
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Re: difference between these 3 stage?

Post by SteRo »

confusedlayman wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 10:41 am
SteRo wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 10:40 am Sorry that I responded to your questions but this seems to evolve into just another tiresome conversation I've had already so many with you. Meanwhile I think that it's a language issue that you have. So please learn to read and analyse and study English texts and then come back and we may have a fruitful conversation.
if you understand vism, can u break it into simple English with real life example analogy for the question?
I am not going to do that. I find the panna chapter of Vism inspiring but as you should know by now I don't follow theravada. Why on earth should I be interested to put so much energy into teaching someone else theravada Vism?
Why are you so lazy and want others do the work you have to do if you want to follow theravada Vism?

Or are you trolling? :lol:

Also consider this: if I as a non-theravadin would teach theravada Vism the likelihood that my teaching would deviate from common theravada understanding of Vism is very high.
So I prefer to quote from Vism where appropriate because quotes are empty of own interpretation.
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Re: difference between these 3 stage?

Post by confusedlayman »

Ok, I will wait If others layman or monks in forum can clarify if they have time..
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Re: difference between these 3 stage?

Post by SteRo »

Good luck ! :lol:
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