satipattana sutta and beingness problem

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
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confusedlayman
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satipattana sutta and beingness problem

Post by confusedlayman »

when u contemplate body, feeling, mind, dhamma

there is centre heaviness increasing as if it is observer (however it is just another process of cognition and feeling) but how to get rid of that ?
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SteRo
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Re: satipattana sutta and beingness problem

Post by SteRo »

Generally theravada satipattana does neither counter 'I' nor intuitive self-beingness. Satipattana of body #4, #5 and #6 may counter self/'I' only in case there is strong self-identification with body.
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DooDoot
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Re: satipattana sutta and beingness problem

Post by DooDoot »

the mind can observe independent of intention to observe

for example, if there is a loud explosion, the mind hears the sound without intention to hear the sound

the "heaviness" of the observer is the intention to observe

the "heaviness" of the observer is also the suppression of the five hindrances by an observer that commits the three unskillful actions (refer to AN 10.61) which are the food of the five hindrances

just as a person that eats junk food becomes obese & heavy, so do the five hindrances become obese & heavy of the person that indulges in the three unskillful actions

the way to get rid of "heaviness" is to purify one's bodily, verbal & mental actions and, once done, then giving up the intention to observe so the mind can observe naturally & optimally
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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confusedlayman
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Re: satipattana sutta and beingness problem

Post by confusedlayman »

DooDoot wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 8:39 pm the mind can observe independent of intention to observe

for example, if there is a loud explosion, the mind hears the sound without intention to hear the sound

the "heaviness" of the observer is the intention to observe

the "heaviness" of the observer is also the suppression of the five hindrances by an observer that commits the three unskillful actions (refer to AN 10.61) which are the food of the five hindrances

just as a person that eats junk food becomes obese & heavy, so do the five hindrances become obese & heavy of the person that indulges in the three unskillful actions

the way to get rid of "heaviness" is to purify one's bodily, verbal & mental actions and, once done, then giving up the intention to observe so the mind can observe naturally & optimally
Thanks... mind can observe naturally is what i will do...
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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confusedlayman
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Re: satipattana sutta and beingness problem

Post by confusedlayman »

will satipattana sutta describe escape from thoughts? or stuck in cycle of thoughts?
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DooDoot
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Re: satipattana sutta and beingness problem

Post by DooDoot »

confusedlayman wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 7:02 pm will satipattana sutta describe escape from thoughts? or stuck in cycle of thoughts?
cycle of thoughts is due to not maintaining the five precepts, including having wrong view about the 3rd precept
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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pegembara
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Re: satipattana sutta and beingness problem

Post by pegembara »

confusedlayman wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 4:35 pm when u contemplate body, feeling, mind, dhamma

there is centre heaviness increasing as if it is observer (however it is just another process of cognition and feeling) but how to get rid of that ?
The beingness is due to liking and disliking or push/pull towards what is being observed. There is no easy way other than the practice of sense restraint and watching the arising and passing of the feelings.
"Monks, the ending of the fermentations is for one who knows & sees, I tell you, not for one who does not know & does not see. For one who knows what & sees what? Appropriate attention & inappropriate attention. When a monk attends inappropriately, unarisen fermentations arise, and arisen fermentations increase. When a monk attends appropriately, unarisen fermentations do not arise, and arisen fermentations are abandoned. There are fermentations to be abandoned by seeing, those to be abandoned by restraining, those to be abandoned by using, those to be abandoned by tolerating, those to be abandoned by avoiding, those to be abandoned by dispelling, and those to be abandoned by developing.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Beingness is the conceit "I am". That centredness or "knower".
"When a monk's fermentations that should be abandoned by seeing have been abandoned by seeing, his fermentations that should be abandoned by restraining have been abandoned by restraining, his fermentations that should be abandoned by using have been abandoned by using, his fermentations that should be abandoned by tolerating have been abandoned by tolerating, his fermentations that should be abandoned by avoiding have been abandoned by avoiding, his fermentations that should be abandoned by dispelling have been abandoned by dispelling, his fermentations that should be abandoned by developing have been abandoned by developing, then he is called a monk who dwells restrained with the restraint of all the fermentations. He has severed craving, thrown off the fetters, and — through the right penetration of conceit — has made an end of suffering & stress."
"Herein, Bahiya, you should train yourself thus: 'In the seen will be merely what is seen; in the heard will be merely what is heard; in the sensed will be merely what is sensed; in the cognized will be merely what is cognized.' In this way you should train yourself, Bahiya.

"When, Bahiya, for you in the seen is merely what is seen... in the cognized is merely what is cognized, then, Bahiya, you will not be 'with that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'with that,' then, Bahiya, you will not be 'in that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'in that,' then, Bahiya, you will be neither here nor beyond nor in between the two. Just this is the end of suffering."

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confusedlayman
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Re: satipattana sutta and beingness problem

Post by confusedlayman »

this topic can be closed..

beingness is just a perception of thick feeling in middle of chest... it is acknowledged for what it is... feeling arise due to cause and condition and as long as its known as feeling, there is no danger...
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Re: satipattana sutta and beingness problem

Post by DooDoot »

confusedlayman wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 4:53 pm this topic can be closed..

beingness.. is acknowledged for what it is...
the goal of satipatthana is the cessation of beingness (bhava)

this topic is not closed but has not even begun
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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confusedlayman
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Re: satipattana sutta and beingness problem

Post by confusedlayman »

DooDoot wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 8:44 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 4:53 pm this topic can be closed..

beingness.. is acknowledged for what it is...
the goal of satipatthana is the cessation of beingness (bhava)

this topic is not closed but has not even begun
cessation of beingness in mind or physical feeling?
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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DooDoot
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Re: satipattana sutta and beingness problem

Post by DooDoot »

confusedlayman wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 7:01 am cessation of beingness in mind or physical feeling?
beingness = bhava = identity
The craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there — i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming: This, friend Visakha, is the origination of self-identification described by the Blessed One.

MN 44
in Emptiness, there is no bhava but there is five aggregates ('kaya')
They understand: ‘This field of perception is empty of the perception of sensuality, beingness (bhava), and ignorance. There is only this that is not emptiness, namely that associated with the six sense fields dependent on this group/body ('kaya') conditioned by life.’

MN 121
if we learn Nagarjuna/SteRo nonsense but post question on Theravada forum, we just cause confusion for ourself & trouble for others

buddha teach there is five aggregates without clinging and five aggregates with clinging. five aggregates without clinging equals emptiness
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: satipattana sutta and beingness problem

Post by Alino »

confusedlayman wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 7:01 am
cessation of beingness in mind or physical feeling?
Cessation of beingness, as i understand, is the direct experiance of our khandhas as ownerless.

There is body, but its not experianced as my body; there is feelings, perceptions, formations, sense impressions (consciousness) are here but they not experianced as me, mine, for me, because of me, my self, expression of who i am etc... You feel free about what happens with them, you are not bound to them, mind is not affected by them... you experiance them as outside phenomenas, not yours and they not touching "you", you have perspective (right view) on them, there is space between arising phenomenas and mind...

So it have a mental base (wisdom quality) but it also apply to physical experiences.
Imho
We don't live Samsara, Samsara is living us...

"Form, feelings, perceptions, formations, consciousness - don't care about us, we don't exist for them"
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