Why did Mahasi chose the rising and falling of the abdomen instead of the nostrils or just the breath?

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
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SilaSamadhi8
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Re: Why did Mahasi chose the rising and falling of the abdomen instead of the nostrils or just the breath?

Post by SilaSamadhi8 »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 6:11 am
SilaSamadhi8 wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 11:52 pmSo we observe Vāyo Dhātu (the element of motion) for the Satipatthana practice in order not to confuse it with Anapanasati which is a Samatha practice.

Which brings me to a question I mentioned in the beginning: then why did the Buddha put Anapanasati at the beginning section of "Kaya" in the Satipatthana sutta? Is the Satipatthana sutta simply a collection of Samatha practices? When doing Satipatthana practice is observing the element of motion or just "sitting...sitting" enough to fulfill that foundation (body)?
Mindfulness of breathing tends towards tranquillity. However, it may also be used for insight. The Venerable Ledi Sayādaw explains How to proceed to insight when developing mindfulness of respiration.

The Mahāsi method emphasises attaining insight in the shortest possible time. It is well-suited for lay people who have only a limited period that they can devote to intensive meditation practice.

When the Buddha taught the Satipaṭthāna Sutta there were monks in the audience who had been practising mindfulness of breathing, others who had been practising recollection of the repulsive aspects of the body, etc. The discourse is a comprehensive one that covers all suitable meditation objects.
Visuddhimagga wrote:He should then approach the good friend, the giver of a meditation subject, and he should apprehend from among the forty meditation subjects one that suits his own temperament.
The defining of the four elements is suitable for one of intelligent temperament.
Visuddhimagga wrote:As to suitability to temperament: here the exposition should be understood according to what is suitable to the temperaments. That is to say: first, the ten kinds of foulness and mindfulness occupied with the body are eleven meditation subjects suitable for one of greedy temperament. The four divine abidings and four colour kasiṇas are eight suitable for one of hating temperament. Mindfulness of breathing is the one [recollection as a] meditation subject suitable for one of deluded temperament and for one of speculative temperament. The first six recollections are suitable for one of faithful temperament. Mindfulness of death, the recollection of peace, the defining of the four elements, and the perception of repulsiveness in nutriment, are four suitable for one of intelligent temperament. The remaining kasiṇas and the immaterial states are suitable for all kinds of temperament. And any one of the kasiṇas should be limited for one of speculative temperament and measureless for one of deluded temperament. This is how the exposition should be understood here “as to suitability to temperament.”

I have either the intelligent or deluded/speculative temperament so it makes sense.
sunnat
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Post by sunnat »

Parimukha literally means 'around the mouth'.

My first teacher (burmese lady of the Venerable Ledi Sayadaw lineage) taught me, repeatedly, to anchor my attention in the area around the nose, noting the nature of the breath as it is in the present moment and noting the breath touching this area. As I progressed the teacher directed me to make the area, where attention is placed, smaller and smaller down to an area the size of the nail on the little finger just below the nose. As a result of this refined training I quicly experienced bhanga nana whereby I learned that the release of the painful blocks in my joints that made sitting in a lotus position painful had nothing to do with stretching exercises but was a mental block only. Further, the gradual training went from a focus on a large area to a small area which means that the learned equanimity (with regards to the unpleasant pain) became subtler and subtler until anicca is experienced in its subtlest form, the continual flux of all phenomena, moment to moment.

Thus it seems to me that starting with an even larger area like the abdomen and watching the change (anicca) at that level can be helpful for a beginner. Keeping in mind that the training is gradual and progressive, starting with the gross ultimately leading to a refined awareness of anicca and so onwards to nibbana. The important thing being the training to maintain an continuous awareness of a known truth. (in this case the breath coming in, the breath going out, and the touch of the breath as it goes in or out) Once this one pointed focus is reached the entire body is investigated.

Another important point is that, rather than excluding people who can't have a straight back, uju, or upright, is better understood as correct intention or correct aim like that which is given to an arrow by adding fletches which while the flight of the arrow is curved, it, corrected by the fletches and thus understood by the archer, reaches the goal.
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confusedlayman
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Re: Why did Mahasi chose the rising and falling of the abdomen instead of the nostrils or just the breath?

Post by confusedlayman »

because it is more evident?
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
JohnSo
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Re: Why did Mahasi chose the rising and falling of the abdomen instead of the nostrils or just the breath?

Post by JohnSo »

:anjali: ... if you read Anapanasati Sutta, then you shall notice that the whole breath experience means the air touching the tip of the nose until the abdomen (physically). So, on the first step just 1 point ... the Pa Auk or Goenka techniques take the tip of the nose point ... but the Mahasi take the abdomen point ... it is all the same.
sunnat
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Post by sunnat »

An aside: correction: as corrected elsewhere, the Venerable Mahasi Sayadaw is not of the Ledi Sayadaw lineage (even though his teacher may have been influenced by the Venerable Ledi Sayadaw).


It seems clear that the Venerable Mahasi Sayadaw did not (even though did not teach against it) teach breath and touch of breath awareness (and then on to insight) but helped to get to insight (vipassana) by using the movement (air element) of the abdomen as a bridge to anicca and so to vipassana. I think this is an important thing to understand. The end result may be the same but entry methods differ in important ways. It probably would be confusing to try to mix them together.
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Re: Why did Mahasi chose the rising and falling of the abdomen instead of the nostrils or just the breath?

Post by Spiny Norman »

SilaSamadhi8 wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 12:23 pm Good morning dhamma friends,

In both the Anapanasati sutta and even the Satipatthana sutta the instructions for the breath contain the word "parimukham" in which the more orthodox teachers translate it as the area around the opening: either nostrils or upper lip based on the commentaries. But other teachers interpret it simply as "front", as in "establishing mindfulness at the front". Now, I'm not a fat guy so my belly definitely isn't the frontmost part of my body 😁

So, Why and how did Mahasi Sayadaw chose the rising and falling of the abdomen as the anchor for Satipatthana Vipassana practice? is there a sutta I'm missing that mentions the abdomen or the midriff?

Maybe I'm raising a pointless discussion but I just want to want to know a practice that the Buddha himself taught that fits my psyche.


With Metta to you all 🙏
I find that placing attention on the breath lower down in the body makes for a more grounded and relaxed practice. Attention on the nostrils seems to create tension (effort?), and puts me more "in my head".
Last edited by Spiny Norman on Thu Aug 19, 2021 5:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Spiny Norman
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Re: Why did Mahasi chose the rising and falling of the abdomen instead of the nostrils or just the breath?

Post by Spiny Norman »

confusedlayman wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 10:41 am because it is more evident?
Yes. I recall Ajahn Brahm saying to just place attention on the breath where you notice it most.
What you might call a "natural" approach.
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