Why did Mahasi chose the rising and falling of the abdomen instead of the nostrils or just the breath?

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
User avatar
SilaSamadhi8
Posts: 34
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2020 6:27 pm

Why did Mahasi chose the rising and falling of the abdomen instead of the nostrils or just the breath?

Post by SilaSamadhi8 »

Good morning dhamma friends,

In both the Anapanasati sutta and even the Satipatthana sutta the instructions for the breath contain the word "parimukham" in which the more orthodox teachers translate it as the area around the opening: either nostrils or upper lip based on the commentaries. But other teachers interpret it simply as "front", as in "establishing mindfulness at the front". Now, I'm not a fat guy so my belly definitely isn't the frontmost part of my body 😁

So, Why and how did Mahasi Sayadaw chose the rising and falling of the abdomen as the anchor for Satipatthana Vipassana practice? is there a sutta I'm missing that mentions the abdomen or the midriff?

Maybe I'm raising a pointless discussion but I just want to want to know a practice that the Buddha himself taught that fits my psyche.


With Metta to you all 🙏
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27839
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Why did Mahasi chose the rising and falling of the abdomen instead of the nostrils or just the breath?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
SilaSamadhi8 wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 12:23 pm is there a sutta I'm missing that mentions the abdomen or the midriff?
No, not in that capacity anyway.
SilaSamadhi8 wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 12:23 pm Maybe I'm raising a pointless discussion but I just want to want to know a practice that the Buddha himself taught that fits my psyche.
Fair enough. Maybe try AN 4.126. That's my "go to" meditation instruction, straight from the Pali Canon itself.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
User avatar
robertk
Posts: 5603
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

Re: Why did Mahasi chose the rising and falling of the abdomen instead of the nostrils or just the breath?

Post by robertk »

I think the Mahasi system is supposed to be about focusing on the 4 elements, not breath per se.
User avatar
mjaviem
Posts: 2283
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2020 5:06 pm

Re: Why did Mahasi chose the rising and falling of the abdomen instead of the nostrils or just the breath?

Post by mjaviem »

SilaSamadhi8 wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 12:23 pm ... interpret it simply as "front", as in "establishing mindfulness at the front"...
Maybe "at the front" doesn't refer to a physical place but to a place of attention, where you pay attention, you pay attention in remembering. What do you think? (I think this I heard from DooDoot or someone here on the forum, not sure, or misinterpreted them)
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 19932
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: Why did Mahasi chose the rising and falling of the abdomen instead of the nostrils or just the breath?

Post by mikenz66 »

robertk wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 1:37 pm I think the Mahasi system is supposed to be about focusing on the 4 elements, not breath per se.
Yes, that's my understanding, since the Commentaries say that anapanasati should be at the nose, and Mahasi didn't want to contradict the Commentaries.

However, the suttas are silent about how to observe the breath, unless you interpret parimukhaṁ as referring to the nostrils:
It’s when a mendicant has gone to a wilderness, or to the root of a tree, or to an empty hut. They sit down cross-legged, with their body straight, and establish mindfulness right there (in front).
Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu araññagato vā rukkhamūlagato vā suññāgāragato vā nisīdati pallaṅkaṁ ābhujitvā ujuṁ kāyaṁ paṇidhāya parimukhaṁ satiṁ upaṭṭhapetvā.
Just mindful, they breathe in. Mindful, they breathe out.
So satova assasati satova passasati.
https://suttacentral.net/mn118/en/sujato
:heart:
Mike
ToVincent
Posts: 1839
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 6:02 pm

Re: Why did Mahasi chose the rising and falling of the abdomen instead of the nostrils or just the breath?

Post by ToVincent »

Paṇidhāya parimukhaṃ satiṃ upaṭṭhapetvā

Intending towards the beginning*, and having looked after sati.

:::::::::::::::::::::::::
Paṇidhāya
:::::::::::::::::::::::::
Pali:
Optative of paṇidahati [pa+ni+dhā]
- direct, intend.

:::::::::::::::::::::::::
Parimukhaṃ
:::::::::::::::::::::::::
Sanskrit:
परि pari
- towards , to (RV. AV.)

मुख mukha
- introduction , commencement , beginning (Br. MBh.)

:::::::::::::::::::::::::
Upaṭṭhapetvā
:::::::::::::::::::::::::
Pali:
Absolutive of upaṭṭhahati.
Upaṭṭhahati,& °ṭṭhāti [upa + sthā]
- look after.

_______________________________________

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
BREATH (KAYA) as BODY
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

In the case of the verbs assasanto & passasanto, the Sanskrit considers dīgha (दीर्घ dīrgha) and rassa (ह्रस्व hrasva [hras-va]), as adverbs - whose translation is far (lofty) & close (low) - and not long & short (as it would be, in the case of an adjective).

Long & short has been, without fairness, the prefered translation of dīrgha & rassa.

-------------

Mindful he breathes in
Mindful he breathes out.

Breathing in (quite heavily), towards the high.
Breathing out (quite heavily), away from the high.

Breathing in (quite heavily), towards the low.
Breathing out (quite heavily), away from the low.

Breathing in, he desires to be able to have an accurate knowledge of the entire breath.
Breathing out, he desires to be able to have an accurate knowledge of the entire breath.

Breathing in, he desires to be able to calm the coactions of the breath.
Breathing out, he desires to be able to calm the coactions of the breath.

(Through the mouth)

Image

_________________

*BEGINNING

The body (breath), that takes place in the Saṅkhārā nidāna (Assāsapassāsā = kāyasaṅkhāro) - in the arūpa loka.

More demanding than just working on the mere lower breath (and lower purpose) of raja yoga.
.
.
In this world, there are many people acting and yearning for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; and very few for the Unborn.
User avatar
Bhikkhu Pesala
Posts: 4644
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:17 pm

Re: Why did Mahasi chose the rising and falling of the abdomen instead of the nostrils or just the breath?

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

Mahāsi Sayādaw in A Discourse on the Mālukyaputta Sutta wrote:Why Mindfulness of Respiration is Not Taught
Mindfulness of respiration (ānāpānassati) is included in the ten recollections. It is concentration on breathing in and breathing out. Breathing is an act of the element of motion. It may be asked, therefore, “Why not take up the exercise of breathing in and out?” In my opinion, I agree that ānāpāna could lead to the establishment of insight knowledge, but it should be noted that the Visuddhimagga puts it in the category of samatha, as opposed to vipassanā meditation objects. It enumerates the fourteen body contemplations as follows:
“Herein, the three, that is to say, the sections on the four postures, on the four kinds of full awareness, and on attention directed to the elements as they are stated [at M.iii.89] deal with insight. … So there are only two, that is the sections on breathing and on directing attention to repulsiveness that, as stated there, deal with concentration.” (Vism. 240)
Thus it is clearly stated that mindfulness of breathing belongs to the development of concentration. Therefore, if we advocated mindfulness of breathing we would be open to the criticism that we were teaching samatha and not vipassanā. Then we would be unable to make a rebuttal of this charge without contradicting this teaching in the Visuddhimagga. However, we allow those who like to practise mindfulness of the respiration to have their wish. We impose no restriction upon them.

The Paṭisambhidāmagga and the Visuddhimagga are explicit on the point that, when doing breathing exercises, one must concentrate on the tip of the nose without letting the mind follow the course of the breath in and out. The purpose is to enable the meditator to develop neighbour­hood concentration (upacāra samādhi) and access concentration (appanā samādhi) to enter jhāna.

In the practice of insight, there is no restriction that directs the meditator to note only one phenomenon continuously. If we instruct the meditators to note all the phenomena of touch that occur in various parts of the body while breathing in and out, we will again be open to the criticism that we are contradicting the two authorities just cited. That is why we do not encourage meditators to practise mindfulness of respiration for insight meditation.

Meditation on Abdominal Movements
It has been asked whether meditation on the rising and falling of the abdomen really conforms to the Pāḷi texts. This question may be answered on the authority of the Saḷāyatana Vagga of the Saṃyuttanikāya where it is stated that failure to note the arising and passing away of mind and matter occurring at the six sense-doors results in the upsurge of defilements, while meditating on them brings nibbāna closer through the realisation of the Path and Fruition with the suppression of defilements. The Mālukyaputta Sutta is also very clear on this point. I shall give reasons in support of our method conforming to the scriptures.

When Satipaṭṭhāna teaching prescribes observing the four elements, it is advocating the observance of the apparent phenomena created by the four primary elements. Abdominal movements indicate the working of the element of motion, which is one of the four elements to be observed by the method of attention to the elements (dhātu­manasikāra). I prefer ordinary language to Pāḷi technical terms, so instead of asking meditators to contemplate vāyo dhātu, I ask them to observe the rising and falling of the abdomen. Employing everyday language agrees with the Buddha’s preference for simple speech when he gave the advice, “Gacchāmi vā gacchāmi’ti pajānāti.” As the meditator’s concentration develops with continued practice of insight meditation, he or she will come to realise the nature of the element of motion in the movements of the abdomen.

On the authority of the Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta, and others in the Saṃyuttanikāya, we take it that a meditator should concentrate not only on the four postures usually mentioned in the scriptures, but also on other postures or actions that can be met with in the normal course of events.

If a meditator does not feel satisfied with noting the rising and falling of the abdomen, he or she can try meditating on sitting while sitting, on standing while standing, or on lying down while lying down. However, we do not urge meditators to practise mindfulness of respiration as we maintain that it contradicts statements in the Visuddhimagga and Commentaries on the Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta, which speak of insight meditation after the attainment to jhāna through noting breathing in and breathing out, but we do not deter anyone from practising mindfulness of respiration. Now I will revert to my original theme.
BlogPāli FontsIn This Very LifeBuddhist ChroniclesSoftware (Upasampadā: 24th June, 1979)
User avatar
SilaSamadhi8
Posts: 34
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2020 6:27 pm

Re: Why did Mahasi chose the rising and falling of the abdomen instead of the nostrils or just the breath?

Post by SilaSamadhi8 »

Thank you for the responses especially Bhikkhu Pesala.

So we observe Vāyo Dhātu (the element of motion) for the Satipatthana practice in order not to confuse it with Anapanasati which is a Samatha practice.

Which brings me to a question I mentioned in the beginning: then why did the Buddha put Anapanasati at the beginning section of "Kaya" in the Satipatthana sutta? Is the Satipatthana sutta simply a collection of Samatha practices? When doing Satipatthana practice is observing the element of motion or just "sitting...sitting" enough to fulfill that foundation (body)?
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 19932
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: Why did Mahasi chose the rising and falling of the abdomen instead of the nostrils or just the breath?

Post by mikenz66 »

SilaSamadhi8 wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 11:52 pm Which brings me to a question I mentioned in the beginning: then why did the Buddha put Anapanasati at the beginning section of "Kaya" in the Satipatthana sutta? Is the Satipatthana sutta simply a collection of Samatha practices? When doing Satipatthana practice is observing the element of motion or just "sitting...sitting" enough to fulfill that foundation (body)?
The Satipatthana sutta has a lot of differences from it's parallels from other schools. See, for example, the figure on Page 8 of Perspectives on Satipaṭṭhāna, by Bhikkhu Analayo:
https://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg ... ctives.pdf
Screenshot from 2021-04-27 12-25-13.png
I think these are the three agamas/suttas that he is referring to:
EA: https://suttacentral.net/ea12.1/en/nhat_hanh-laity
MN: https://suttacentral.net/mn10/en/sujato
MA: https://suttacentral.net/ma98/en/patton

As you can see, there is quite a lot of variation, so it is argued, by Analayo and others, that MN10, in particular, was added to over time. It that the additions are "wrong", since they appear in many other suttas.

In Satipaṭṭhāna Meditation: A Practice Guide, Bhikkhu Analayo uses these comparisons to select a basic set of contemplations that are common to many of the parallels.
https://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg ... eguide.pdf
Analayo wrote: This understanding of the basic thrust of each satipaṭṭhāna has
helped me to resolve the questions I had. The remainder of
this book is dedicated to depicting how in actual meditation
a seamless continuity in the practice of all four satipaṭṭhānas
can be achieved. This takes place by progressing through these
seven topics:
• anatomy,
• elements,
• death,
• feelings,
• mind,
• hindrances,
• awakening (factors).

:heart:
Mike
User avatar
salayatananirodha
Posts: 1479
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:34 am
Contact:

Re: Why did Mahasi chose the rising and falling of the abdomen instead of the nostrils or just the breath?

Post by salayatananirodha »

my personal opinion is that the sutta means to say 'mindfulness to the fore', as in summoning the quality of mindfulness and keeping it present. not being mindful of any particular location or segment of space. then, in whatever way you call breathing to mind, be it the wind element, or the bodily movement, a visualization of breathing, or other ways of calling it to mind it is just that. ive even been attentive to the sound of breathing, however subtle. if there were a specified way we were to be mindful of breathing, some particular quality to focus on, i think the buddha would have lain it out. i think you are supposed to ground yourself in the rhythm of your breathing in order to examine other things.

i think if you want to watch the nose or the mouth or the abdomen thats fine, but if you insist that it must be done a particular way i disagree. dont forget also the sutta says to breathe in/out sensitive to the entire body. personally i tried literally being attentive to the front of the body and was confused how i do that and also watch breathing. i felt more like i was getting somewhere by observing the diaphragm internally or thinking about the wind element
breathing is the object not any body part or area in space -- to answer you directly tho i think the nose and mouth are more entry and exitways whereas the abdomen or the diaphragm does the work of bringing in and expelling air. but that might be one of more than one valid way to view it
I host a sutta discussion via Zoom Sundays at 11AM Chicago time — message me if you are interested
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 12032
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Why did Mahasi chose the rising and falling of the abdomen instead of the nostrils or just the breath?

Post by DooDoot »

SilaSamadhi8 wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 12:23 pm So, Why and how did Mahasi Sayadaw chose the rising and falling of the abdomen as the anchor for Satipatthana Vipassana practice?
I imagine for two related reasons:

(i) to maintain clarity of mind (and avoid the sleepy tranquility of mind from premature nose-tip practise)

(ii) to use the breathing as an object of vipassana, i.e., an object to see rising & passing; rising & passing; as described in MN 10
SilaSamadhi8 wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 12:23 pm In both the Anapanasati sutta and even the Satipatthana sutta the instructions for the breath contain the word "parimukham" in which the more orthodox teachers translate it as the area around the opening: either nostrils or upper lip based on the commentaries
The above "orthodox" interpretation is tenuous because the word "mindfulness" ("sati") does not mean the "conscious awareness" ("vinanna") that "observes" ("anupassi") the breathing. This type of extreme interpretation of practice gives rise to other extreme reactionary interpretations of practice, such as by Mahasi

Neither of the above is the middle-way; both are premature attempts to develop either samatha (via nose-tip) or vipassana (via abdomen); however both are useful for newbies to experiment with. :smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
SarathW
Posts: 21184
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Why did Mahasi chose the rising and falling of the abdomen instead of the nostrils or just the breath?

Post by SarathW »

So, Why and how did Mahasi Sayadaw chose the rising and falling of the abdomen as the anchor for Satipatthana Vipassana practice?
Perhaps it is easier to measure the length of your breath whether it is short or long.
:tongue:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 19932
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: Why did Mahasi chose the rising and falling of the abdomen instead of the nostrils or just the breath?

Post by mikenz66 »

salayatananirodha wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 3:36 am my personal opinion is that the sutta means to say 'mindfulness to the fore', as in summoning the quality of mindfulness and keeping it present. not being mindful of any particular location or segment of space.
It's also worth noting that the same expression is used in other places, that don't mention anapanasati:
“Reverends, there’s a time after an esteemed mendicant’s meal when they return from alms-round. Having washed their feet they sit down cross-legged, with their body straight, and establish mindfulness right there. That is the proper occasion for going to see an esteemed mendicant.”
https://suttacentral.net/an6.28/en/sujato
When he has gone to the monastery he sits on a seat spread out and washes his feet. But he doesn’t waste time with pedicures. When he has washed his feet, he sits down cross-legged, with his body straight, and establishes mindfulness right there. He has no intention to hurt himself, hurt others, or hurt both. He only wishes for the welfare of himself, of others, of both, and of the whole world. In the monastery when he teaches Dhamma to an assembly, he neither flatters them nor rebukes them. Invariably, he educates, encourages, fires up, and inspires that assembly with a Dhamma talk.
https://suttacentral.net/mn91/en/sujato
...After the meal, they return from alms-round, sit down cross-legged with their body straight, and establish mindfulness right there.

Giving up desire for the world, they meditate with a heart rid of desire, cleansing the mind of desire. Giving up ill will and malevolence, they meditate with a mind rid of ill will, full of compassion for all living beings, cleansing the mind of ill will. Giving up dullness and drowsiness, they meditate with a mind rid of dullness and drowsiness, perceiving light, mindful and aware, cleansing the mind of dullness and drowsiness. Giving up restlessness and remorse, they meditate without restlessness, their mind peaceful inside, cleansing the mind of restlessness and remorse. Giving up doubt, they meditate having gone beyond doubt, not undecided about skillful qualities, cleansing the mind of doubt.
https://suttacentral.net/dn2/en/sujato
:heart:
Mike
User avatar
Bhikkhu Pesala
Posts: 4644
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:17 pm

Re: Why did Mahasi chose the rising and falling of the abdomen instead of the nostrils or just the breath?

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

SilaSamadhi8 wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 11:52 pmSo we observe Vāyo Dhātu (the element of motion) for the Satipatthana practice in order not to confuse it with Anapanasati which is a Samatha practice.

Which brings me to a question I mentioned in the beginning: then why did the Buddha put Anapanasati at the beginning section of "Kaya" in the Satipatthana sutta? Is the Satipatthana sutta simply a collection of Samatha practices? When doing Satipatthana practice is observing the element of motion or just "sitting...sitting" enough to fulfill that foundation (body)?
Mindfulness of breathing tends towards tranquillity. However, it may also be used for insight. The Venerable Ledi Sayādaw explains How to proceed to insight when developing mindfulness of respiration.

The Mahāsi method emphasises attaining insight in the shortest possible time. It is well-suited for lay people who have only a limited period that they can devote to intensive meditation practice.

When the Buddha taught the Satipaṭthāna Sutta there were monks in the audience who had been practising mindfulness of breathing, others who had been practising recollection of the repulsive aspects of the body, etc. The discourse is a comprehensive one that covers all suitable meditation objects.
Visuddhimagga wrote:He should then approach the good friend, the giver of a meditation subject, and he should apprehend from among the forty meditation subjects one that suits his own temperament.
The defining of the four elements is suitable for one of intelligent temperament.
Visuddhimagga wrote:As to suitability to temperament: here the exposition should be understood according to what is suitable to the temperaments. That is to say: first, the ten kinds of foulness and mindfulness occupied with the body are eleven meditation subjects suitable for one of greedy temperament. The four divine abidings and four colour kasiṇas are eight suitable for one of hating temperament. Mindfulness of breathing is the one [recollection as a] meditation subject suitable for one of deluded temperament and for one of speculative temperament. The first six recollections are suitable for one of faithful temperament. Mindfulness of death, the recollection of peace, the defining of the four elements, and the perception of repulsiveness in nutriment, are four suitable for one of intelligent temperament. The remaining kasiṇas and the immaterial states are suitable for all kinds of temperament. And any one of the kasiṇas should be limited for one of speculative temperament and measureless for one of deluded temperament. This is how the exposition should be understood here “as to suitability to temperament.”
BlogPāli FontsIn This Very LifeBuddhist ChroniclesSoftware (Upasampadā: 24th June, 1979)
User avatar
mjaviem
Posts: 2283
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2020 5:06 pm

Re: Why did Mahasi chose the rising and falling of the abdomen instead of the nostrils or just the breath?

Post by mjaviem »

salayatananirodha wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 3:36 am ... i think the nose and mouth are more entry and exitways whereas the abdomen or the diaphragm does the work of bringing in and expelling air. but that might be one of more than one valid way to view it
Yes, I think if the point is to focus on the breath, it helps to be mindful of the abdomen as well. The diaphragm is what makes the air flow and not an external factor to the body like with the wind.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
Post Reply