How is it possible to attain arahantship without jhana?

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
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pitithefool
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How is it possible to attain arahantship without jhana?

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How is it so?
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DooDoot
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Re: How is it possible to attain arahantship without jhana?

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Its not possible to attain arahantship without jhana. Its even worse when jhana is misconstrued. Those who underestimate what jhana is will obviously underestimate what arahant is. Soon there will be Arahant-Lite, similar to Daniel Ingram. :smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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pitithefool
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Re: How is it possible to attain arahantship without jhana?

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DooDoot wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 9:43 pm Its not possible to attain arahantship without jhana. Its even worse when jhana is misconstrued. Those who underestimate what jhana is will obviously underestimate what arahant is. Soon there will be Arahant-Lite, similar to
I can't talk to Ceisiwr, so I'll talk to you. How is the jhana misconstrued?
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DooDoot
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Re: How is it possible to attain arahantship without jhana?

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pitithefool wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 9:47 pm How is the jhana misconstrued?
Here & here
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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pitithefool
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Re: How is it possible to attain arahantship without jhana?

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DooDoot wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 9:43 pm Its not possible to attain arahantship without jhana. Its even worse when jhana is misconstrued. Those who underestimate what jhana is will obviously underestimate what arahant is. Soon there will be Arahant-Lite, similar to Daniel Ingram. :smile:
My view is this:

If vipassana meditation is practiced to induce insight, then the next logical step after seeing three marks is to abandon all phenomena, stepwise, via jhana.
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Lucas Oliveira
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Re: How is it possible to attain arahantship without jhana?

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pitithefool wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 9:42 pm How is it so?
there's a lecture on that in Portuguese ..

these are the Suttas mentioned in the lecture in Portuguese
Sasankhara Sutta (AN IV.169) - Através do Esforço
Indriyasamvara Sutta (AN VI.50) - Contenção das Faculdades
Dussila Sutta (AN V.24) - Sem virtude
Upanisa Sutta (SN XII.23) - Condição
Cetanakaraniya Sutta (AN X.2) - Intenção Correta
Cakkhu Sutta (SN XXV.1) - O Olho
Mahadukkhakkhandha Sutta (MN 13) - O Grande Discurso da Massa de Sofrimento
Gilana Sutta (AN V.121) - Enfermo
Phagguna Sutta (AN VI.56) - Phagguna
Nibbida Sutta (AN V.69) - Desencantamento
I searched the internet and found this text in English ..
Attaining Nibbāna without Jhana

This is the fundamental argument of those who contend that the jhanas are necessary for attaining Nibbāna: that is, that it is the Jhana that is effecting the attaining. This is an incorrect perception: it is the insight into impermanance and the letting go that is the fundamental tool for attaining Nibbāna.

https://obo.genaud.net/dhammatalk/bd_dh ... _jhana.htm
:anjali:
Last edited by Lucas Oliveira on Sat May 08, 2021 10:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Aloka
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Re: How is it possible to attain arahantship without jhana?

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pitithefool wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 9:52 pm
My view is this:

If vipassana meditation is practiced to induce insight, then the next logical step after seeing three marks is to abandon all phenomena, stepwise, via jhana.
Could you explain the format of this in more detail, please?


:anjali:


.
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Re: How is it possible to attain arahantship without jhana?

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Aloka wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 10:12 pm
Could you explain the format of this in more detail, please?

:anjali:
Of course.

Seeing the drawbacks in the five aggregates, the mind will look for a place safe from it, beyond the range of what is inconstant, suffering, and not self.

The mind loses interest in those things, taking up an object instead.

Entering the first jhana, we abaondon sensuality
Entering the second, we abandon placing and sustaining the attention to the object
Entering the third, we abandon rapture,
Entering the fourth, equanimity is purified
Entering infinite space, disversity of perception is abandoned
Entering infinite consciousness, infinite space is abandoned,
Entering nothingness, infinite consciousness is abandoned
Entering neither perception nor non-perception, onthingness is abandoned

Upon emerging from that attainment, seeing it with wisdom "this too is fabricated, conditioned, impermanent, suffering, not self" there is nothing left to abandon and either complete cessation is attained or nibbana.
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Re: How is it possible to attain arahantship without jhana?

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Lucas Oliveira wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 10:06 pm
This is the fundamental argument of those who contend that the jhanas are necessary for attaining Nibbāna: that is, that it is the Jhana that is effecting the attaining. This is an incorrect perception: it is the insight into impermanance and the letting go that is the fundamental tool for attaining Nibbāna.

https://obo.genaud.net/dhammatalk/bd_dh ... _jhana.htm
:anjali:
[/quote]

My view is that the jhanas are what occurs when one lets go and nibbana is what occurs when the letting go has reached completion.
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Srilankaputra
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Re: How is it possible to attain arahantship without jhana?

Post by Srilankaputra »

Hi,

In the Theravada tradition, 'dry insight' mode of practice does not imply, dry of qualities such as Samadhi, Piti, Sukha etc. Just that the practitioner does not master absorptive states of samadhi.

Think of it this way. When the heart has certain well developed qualities at its disposal, there is the possibility of the attainments. This has been explained in a number of ways. Some monks were instructed to develop two qualities(Samatha and Vipassana) and they understood. some, five qualities (Indriya Dhammas). Some, seven qualities( Bojjanga Dhammas), some, eight qualities etc.
Monks, there are these four modes of practice. Which four? Painful practice with slow intuition, painful practice with quick intuition, pleasant practice with slow intuition, & pleasant practice with quick intuition.

And which is painful practice with slow intuition? There is the case where a monk remains focused on unattractiveness with regard to the body, percipient of loathsomeness with regard to food, percipient of non-delight with regard to the entire world, (and) focused on inconstancy with regard to all fabrications. The perception of death is well established within him. He dwells in dependence on the five strengths of a learner—strength of conviction, strength of conscience, strength of concern, strength of persistence, & strength of discernment—but these five faculties of his—the faculty of conviction, the faculty of persistence, the faculty of mindfulness, the faculty of concentration, the faculty of discernment—appear weakly. Because of their weakness, he attains only slowly the immediacy that leads to the ending of the effluents. This is called painful practice with slow intuition.

“And which is painful practice with quick intuition? There is the case where a monk remains focused on unattractiveness with regard to the body, percipient of loathsomeness with regard to food, percipient of non-delight with regard to the entire world, (and) focused on inconstancy with regard to all fabrications. The perception of death is well established within him. He dwells in dependence on these five strengths of a learner—strength of conviction, strength of conscience, strength of concern, strength of persistence, & strength of discernment—and these five faculties of his—the faculty of conviction, the faculty of persistence, the faculty of mindfulness, the faculty of concentration, the faculty of discernment—appear intensely. Because of their intensity, he attains quickly the immediacy that leads to the ending of the effluents. This is called painful practice with quick intuition.

“And which is pleasant practice with slow intuition? There is the case where a monk—quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities—enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of concentration, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation—internal assurance. With the fading of rapture he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the noble ones declare, ‘Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.’ With the abandoning of pleasure & pain—as with the earlier disappearance of joy & distress—he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. He dwells in dependence on these five strengths of a learner—strength of conviction, strength of conscience, strength of concern, strength of persistence, & strength of discernment—but these five faculties of his—the faculty of conviction, the faculty of persistence, the faculty of mindfulness, the faculty of concentration, the faculty of discernment—appear weakly. Because of their weakness, he attains only slowly the immediacy that leads to the ending of the effluents. This is called pleasant practice with slow intuition.

“And which is pleasant practice with quick intuition? There is the case where a monk—quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities—enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of concentration, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation—internal assurance. With the fading of rapture he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the noble ones declare, ‘Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.’ With the abandoning of pleasure & pain—as with the earlier disappearance of joy & distress—he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. He dwells in dependence on these five strengths of a learner—strength of conviction, strength of conscience, strength of concern, strength of persistence, & strength of discernment—and these five faculties of his—the faculty of conviction, the faculty of persistence, the faculty of mindfulness, the faculty of concentration, the faculty of discernment—appear intensely. Because of their intensity, he attains quickly the immediacy that leads to the ending of the effluents. This is called pleasant practice with quick intuition.
https://suttacentral.net/an4.163/en/thanissaro

Please note, 'painful' means in relative terms to 'pleasant' mode.

As I understand.

Lokāmisaṃ pajahe santipekkho ti
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Re: How is it possible to attain arahantship without jhana?

Post by pitithefool »

Srilankaputra wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 1:37 am
As I understand.
How does one actually sit and practice vipassana meditation?
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Re: How is it possible to attain arahantship without jhana?

Post by Srilankaputra »

pitithefool wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 1:57 am
Srilankaputra wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 1:37 am
As I understand.
How does one actually sit and practice vipassana meditation?
The parctioner jumps strait in to investigating the sankhara dhammas. When the nivaranas are tranquilized and the heart becomes well collected upon this investigation.

Lokāmisaṃ pajahe santipekkho ti
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Re: How is it possible to attain arahantship without jhana?

Post by Lucas Oliveira »

It seems possible ..

but and the Eightfold Path?
The Blessed One said, "Now what, monks, is the Noble Eightfold Path? Right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration.

"And what, monks, is right concentration? (i) There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. (ii) With the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of concentration, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. (iii) With the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' (iv) With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This, monks, is called right concentration."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
:anjali:
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Re: How is it possible to attain arahantship without jhana?

Post by Srilankaputra »

Lucas Oliveira wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 2:55 am but and the Eightfold Path?
I have some references in mind. But I'll have share them later. Suttacentral search function is not working for me right now.

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Re: How is it possible to attain arahantship without jhana?

Post by pitithefool »

Srilankaputra wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 2:12 am
pitithefool wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 1:57 am
Srilankaputra wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 1:37 am
As I understand.
How does one actually sit and practice vipassana meditation?
The parctioner jumps strait in to investigating the sankhara dhammas. When the nivaranas are tranquilized and the heart becomes well collected upon this investigation.
Sounds like jhana to me.
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