How is it possible to attain arahantship without jhana?

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
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pitithefool
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Re: How is it possible to attain arahantship without jhana?

Post by pitithefool »

Lucas Oliveira wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 2:55 am It seems possible ..

but and the Eightfold Path?
The Blessed One said, "Now what, monks, is the Noble Eightfold Path? Right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration.

"And what, monks, is right concentration? (i) There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. (ii) With the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of concentration, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. (iii) With the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' (iv) With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This, monks, is called right concentration."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
:anjali:
I just feel like doing that results in jhana. You observe phenomena, you see that they're impermanent, you let go, your mind stills and you become happy and contented. That really sounds like jhana. Vitakka-vicara, piti-sukha, then upekkha.
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pegembara
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Re: How is it possible to attain arahantship without jhana?

Post by pegembara »

Not directly answering your question but the mind has to enter right samadhi ...
The Discourse on
the Grounds for Liberation
A 5.26

“Here, monks, a monk is taught Dhamma by the Teacher or by a respected co-practitioner. Monks, when that monk is being taught Dhamma by the Teacher or by a respected co-practitioner, he experience the meaning and the Dhamma. When one experiences the meaning and the Dhamma, joyfulness is born. When one is joyful, euphoria is born. When one has a euphoric mind, one’s body becomes tranquil. When one has a tranquil body, one experiences happiness. When one is happy, one’s mind enters samādhi. Monks, this is the first circumstance of liberation where a monk who is vigilant, ardent, and self-directed liberates his unliberated mind, eliminates his uneliminated corruptions, and attains the unattained supreme safety.

“Here, monks, a monk is not taught Dhamma by the Teacher or by a respected co-practitioner, but he teaches to others in detail the Dhamma that he has heard and mastered. Monks, when a monk teaches to others in detail the Dhamma that he has heard and mastered, he experiences the meaning and the Dhamma. When one experiences the meaning and the Dhamma, joyfulness is born. When one is joyful, euphoria is born. When one has a euphoric mind, one’s body becomes tranquil. When one has a tranquil body, one experiences happiness. When one is happy, one’s mind enters samādhi. Monks, this is the second circumstance of liberation where a monk who is vigilant, ardent, and self-directed liberates his unliberated mind, eliminates his uneliminated corruptions, and attains the unattained supreme safety.

“Here, monks, a monk is not taught Dhamma by the Teacher or by a respected co-practitioner, and does not teach to others in detail the Dhamma that he has heard and mastered, but he recites in detail the Dhamma that he has heard and mastered. Monks, when a monk recites in detail the Dhamma that he has heard and mastered, he experiences the meaning and the Dhamma. When one experiences the meaning and the Dhamma, joyfulness is born. When one is joyful, euphoria is born. When one has a euphoric mind, one’s body becomes tranquil. When one has a tranquil body, one experiences happiness. When one is happy, one’s mind enters samādhi. Monks, this is the third circumstance of liberation where a monk who is vigilant, ardent, and self-directed liberates his unliberated mind, eliminates his uneliminated corruptions, and attains the unattained supreme safety.

“Here, monks, a monk is not taught Dhamma by the Teacher or by a respected co-practitioner, does not teach to others in detail the Dhamma that he has heard and mastered, and does not recite in detail the Dhamma that he has heard and mastered, but he thinks about, mentally explores, and mentally examines the Dhamma that he has heard and mastered. Monks, when a monk thinks about, mentally explores, and mentally examines the Dhamma that he has heard and mastered, he experiences the meaning and the Dhamma. When one experiences the meaning and the Dhamma, joyfulness is born. When one is joyful, euphoria is born. When one has a euphoric mind, one’s body becomes tranquil. When one has a tranquil body, one experiences happiness. When one is happy, one’s mind enters samādhi. Monks, this is the fourth circumstance of liberation where a monk who is vigilant, ardent, and self-directed liberates his unliberated mind, eliminates his uneliminated corruptions, and attains the unattained supreme safety.

“Here, monks, a monk is not taught Dhamma by the Teacher or by a respected co-practitioner, does not teach to others in detail the Dhamma that he has heard and mastered, does not recite in detail the Dhamma that he has heard and mastered, and does not think about, mentally explore, and mentally examine the Dhamma that he has heard and mastered, but he has a particular samādhi-object which he has held well, attended to well, taken up well, and penetrated well with wisdom. Monks, when a monk has a particular samādhi-object which he has held well, attended to well, taken up well, and penetrated well with wisdom, he experiences the meaning and the Dhamma. When one experiences the meaning and the Dhamma, joyfulness is born. When one is joyful, euphoria is born. When one has a euphoric mind, one’s body becomes tranquil. When one has a tranquil body, one experiences happiness. When one is happy, one’s mind enters samādhi. Monks, this is the fifth circumstance of liberation where a monk who is vigilant, ardent, and self-directed liberates his unliberated mind, eliminates his uneliminated corruptions, and attains the unattained supreme safety.

http://bhantesuddhaso.com/teachings/sut ... ana-sutta/
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Re: How is it possible to attain arahantship without jhana?

Post by mikenz66 »

pitithefool wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 3:30 am I just feel like doing that results in jhana. You observe phenomena, you see that they're impermanent, you let go, your mind stills and you become happy and contented. That really sounds like jhana. Vitakka-vicara, piti-sukha, then upekkha.
It sounds like you are describing "Vipassana Jhana":
http://aimwell.org/inthisverylife.html# ... sanaJhanas
U Pandita wrote:Vipassanā Jhāna
On the other hand, vipassanā jhāna allows the mind to move freely from object to object, staying focused on the characteristics of impermanence, suffering and absence of self that are common to all objects. Vipassanā jhāna also includes the mind which can be focused and fixed upon the bliss of nibbāna. Rather than the tranquillity and absorption which are the goal of samatha jhāna practitioners, the most important results of vipassanā jhāna are insight and wisdom.
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Re: How is it possible to attain arahantship without jhana?

Post by DooDoot »

pitithefool wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 10:33 pm
Entering the first jhana, we abaondon sensuality
Entering the second, we abandon placing and sustaining the attention to the object
Entering the third, we abandon rapture,
Unlikely to attain arahantship with all of the "we" doing stuff. :roll:
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Re: How is it possible to attain arahantship without jhana?

Post by confusedlayman »

DooDoot wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 9:43 pm Its not possible to attain arahantship without jhana. Its even worse when jhana is misconstrued. Those who underestimate what jhana is will obviously underestimate what arahant is. Soon there will be Arahant-Lite, similar to Daniel Ingram. :smile:
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Re: How is it possible to attain arahantship without jhana?

Post by auto »

confusedlayman wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 2:16 pm
DooDoot wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 9:43 pm Its not possible to attain arahantship without jhana. Its even worse when jhana is misconstrued. Those who underestimate what jhana is will obviously underestimate what arahant is. Soon there will be Arahant-Lite, similar to Daniel Ingram. :smile:
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giving 'goodpost' to a wrong speech.
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mjaviem
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Re: How is it possible to attain arahantship without jhana?

Post by mjaviem »

Can anyone explain what is this thread about? Isn't it that a meditator attains increasing levels of absorption gaining in wisdom up to the point that while not meditating (e.g., when falling asleep before their head hits the ground) they finally can let go anything that was fettering them and achieve enlightenment? What is in discussion here? Thanks.
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Re: How is it possible to attain arahantship without jhana?

Post by sphairos »

This a long and detailed answer to the question "how is it possible to attain arahantship without jhana?":

T. Wen. A Study of Sukkhavipassaka in Pāli Buddhism. PhD thesis. 2009.

https://scdd.sfo2.cdn.digitaloceanspace ... 043029.pdf
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Re: How is it possible to attain arahantship without jhana?

Post by Srilankaputra »

Lucas Oliveira wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 2:55 am but and the Eightfold Path?
What, bhikkhus, is noble right concentration with its supports and its requisites, that is, right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, and right mindfulness

Unification of mind equipped with these seven factors is called noble right concentration with its supports and its requisites.
https://suttacentral.net/mn117/en/bodhi
“Bhikkhus, a bhikkhu sees as impermanent form which is actually impermanent: that is his right view. Seeing rightly, he experiences revulsion. With the destruction of delight comes the destruction of lust; with the destruction of lust comes the destruction of delight. With the destruction of delight and lust the mind is liberated and is said to be well liberated.

“A bhikkhu sees as impermanent feeling which is actually impermanent …

perception which is actually impermanent …

volitional formations which are actually impermanent …

consciousness which is actually impermanent: that is his right view…. With the destruction of delight and lust the mind is liberated and is said to be well liberated.”
https://suttacentral.net/sn22.51/en/bodhi

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Re: How is it possible to attain arahantship without jhana?

Post by Lucas Oliveira »

SN 12.70: Susima Sutta — About Susima

The Buddha explains to Susima that development of psychic powers is not a prerequisite for enlightenment.

Translator's note: This discourse is sometimes cited as proof that a meditator can attain Awakening (final gnosis) without having practiced the jhanas, but a close reading shows that it does not support this assertion at all. The new arahants mentioned here do not deny that they have attained any of the four "form" jhanas that make up the definition of right concentration. Instead, they simply deny that they have acquired any psychic powers or that they remain in physical contact with the higher levels of concentration, "the formless states beyond forms." In this, their definition of "discernment-release" is no different from that given in AN 9.44 (compare this with the definitions for "bodily witness" and "released in both ways" given in AN 9.43 and AN 9.45). Taken in the context of the Buddha's many other teachings on right concentration, there's every reason to believe that the new arahants mentioned in this discourse had reached at least the first jhana before attaining Awakening.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Susima Sutta: About Susima

I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Rajagaha in the Bamboo Grove, the squirrels' sanctuary. Now at that time the Blessed One was worshipped, revered, honored, venerated, given homage — a recipient of robes, almsfood, lodgings, & medical requisites for the sick. The community of monks was also worshipped, revered, honored, venerated, given homage — a recipient of robes, almsfood, lodgings, & medical requisites for the sick. But the wanderers of other sects were not worshipped, revered, honored, venerated, or given homage, nor were they recipients of robes, almsfood, lodgings, or medical requisites for the sick.

Now at that time Susima the wanderer was living in Rajagaha with a large following of wanderers. And so Susima's following of wanderers said to him, "Come now, friend Susima. Go live the holy life under Gotama the contemplative. When you have completely mastered the Dhamma, tell it to us; when we have completely mastered it, we will teach it to householders and then we, too, will be worshipped, revered, honored, venerated, given homage; we too will become recipients of robes, almsfood, lodgings, & medical requisites for the sick."

Responding, "As you say, friends," to his own following, Susima the wanderer went to Ven. Ananda and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with him. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to Ven. Ananda, "Friend Ananda, I want to live the holy life in this Dhamma & Discipline."

Then Ven. Ananda took Susima the wanderer to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to the Blessed One, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One, "Lord, this wanderer, Susima, has said, 'Friend Ananda, I want to live the holy life in this Dhamma & Discipline.'"

"Then in that case, Ananda, give him the Going Forth." So Susima the wanderer gained the Going Forth in the presence of the Blessed One, he gained the Acceptance (into the community of monks).

Now at that time a large number of monks had declared final gnosis in the Blessed One's presence: "We discern that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for the sake of this world.'"

Ven. Susima heard that "A large number of monks, it seems, have declared final gnosis in the Blessed One's presence: 'We discern that "Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for the sake of this world."'" Then Ven. Susima went to those monks and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with them. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to them, "Is it true, as they say, that you have declared final gnosis in the Blessed One's presence: 'We discern that "Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for the sake of this world"'?"

"Then, having known thus, having seen thus, do you wield manifold supranormal powers? Having been one you become many; having been many you become one? You appear? You vanish? You go unimpeded through walls, ramparts, & mountains as if through space? You dive in & out of the earth as if it were water? You walk on water without sinking as if it were dry land? Sitting crosslegged you fly through the air like a winged bird? With your hand you touch and stroke even the sun & moon, so mighty & powerful? You exercise influence with your body even as far as the Brahma worlds?"

"No, friend."

"Then, having known thus, having seen thus, do you wield manifold supranormal powers? Having been one you become many; having been many you become one? You appear? You vanish? You go unimpeded through walls, ramparts, & mountains as if through space? You dive in & out of the earth as if it were water? You walk on water without sinking as if it were dry land? Sitting crosslegged you fly through the air like a winged bird? With your hand you touch and stroke even the sun & moon, so mighty & powerful? You exercise influence with your body even as far as the Brahma worlds?"

"No, friend."

"Then, having known thus, having seen thus, do you hear — by means of the divine ear-element, purified & surpassing the human — both kinds of sounds: divine & human, whether near or far?"

"No, friend."

"Then, having known thus, having seen thus, do you know the awareness of other beings, other individuals, having encompassed it with your own awareness? Do you discern a mind with passion as a mind with passion, and a mind without passion as a mind without passion; a mind with aversion as a mind with aversion, and a mind without aversion as a mind without aversion; a mind with delusion as a mind with delusion, and a mind without delusion as a mind without delusion; a restricted mind as a restricted mind, and a scattered mind as a scattered mind; an enlarged mind as an enlarged mind, and an unenlarged mind as an unenlarged mind;an excelled mind [one that is not on the most excellent level] as an excelled mind, and an unexcelled mind as an unexcelled mind; a concentrated mind as a concentrated mind, and an unconcentrated mind as an unconcentrated mind; a released mind as a released mind, and an unreleased mind as an unreleased mind?"

"No, friend."

"Then, having known thus, having seen thus, do you recollect your manifold past lives (lit: previous homes), i.e., one birth, two births, three births, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, one hundred, one thousand, one hundred thousand births, many aeons of cosmic contraction, many aeons of cosmic expansion, many aeons of cosmic contraction & expansion, [recollecting], 'There I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose there. There too I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose here'?"

"No, friend."

"Then, having known thus, having seen thus, do you see — by means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human — beings passing away and re-appearing, and do you discern how they are inferior & superior, beautiful & ugly, fortunate & unfortunate in accordance with their kamma: 'These beings — who were endowed with bad conduct of body, speech, & mind, who reviled the noble ones, held wrong views and undertook actions under the influence of wrong views — with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell. But these beings — who were endowed with good conduct of body, speech, & mind, who did not revile the noble ones, who held right views and undertook actions under the influence of right views — with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the good destinations, in the heavenly world'?"

"No, friend."


"Then, having known thus, having seen thus, do you dwell touching with your body the peaceful emancipations, the formless states beyond form [the formless jhanas]?"
[2] Spk: "Releases that are peaceful and immaterial that transcend forms" are immaterial achievements. See MN 70.17 for more information on what it means to “touch with the body.”
https://www.acessoaoinsight.net/sutta/SNXII.70.php#N2
"No, friend."

"So just now, friends, didn't you make that declaration without having attained any of these Dhammas?"

"We're released through discernment, friend Susima."
[3] Spk: "Friend, we have achieved liberation without the jhanas, liberated only through wisdom, (paññavimutta)." According to Spk the arahant paññavimutta can achieve this state either with any of the four jhanas or without any of the jhanas, what is known as “dry insight” or “dry” or “direct” insight (sukkhavipassaka). Although the commentary gives this explanation, the sutta itself only mentions that they lacked the abhiññas and arupas; the sutta says nothing about whether or not they have achieved any of the four jhanas.
https://www.acessoaoinsight.net/sutta/SNXII.70.php#N3
"I don't understand the detailed meaning of your brief statement. It would be good if you would speak in such a way that I would understand its detailed meaning."

"Whether or not you understand, friend Susima, we are still released through discernment."

So Ven. Susima got up from his seat and went to the Blessed One. On arrival, having bowed down to the Blessed One, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he told the Blessed One the entire conversation he had had with those monks.

[The Blessed One said:] "First, Susima, there is the knowledge of the regularity of the Dhamma [dependent co-arising], after which there is the knowledge of Unbinding."
[4] Pubbe kho Susima dhammatthitiñanam, paccha nibbane ñanam. Spk: The knowledge of insight is the "knowledge of the stability of the Dhamma," which comes first. The stability of the Dhamma is the stability of phenomena, its intrinsic nature: impermanence, suffering, non-self. At the end of the insight process comes the knowledge of the supramundane path, this is the “knowledge of nibbana.
https://www.acessoaoinsight.net/sutta/SNXII.70.php#N4
"I don't understand the detailed meaning of the Blessed One's brief statement. It would be good if the Blessed One would speak in such a way that I would understand its detailed meaning."

"Whether or not you understand, Susima, it is still the case that first there is the knowledge of the regularity of the Dhamma, after which there is the knowledge of Unbinding.

"What do you think, Susima: Is form [any physical phenomenon] constant or inconstant?" — "Inconstant, lord." — "And is that which is inconstant easeful or stressful?" — "Stressful, lord." — "And is it fitting to regard what is inconstant, stressful, subject to change as: 'This is mine. This is my self. This is what I am'?"

"No, lord."

"...Is feeling constant or inconstant?" — "Inconstant, lord."...

"...Is perception constant or inconstant?" — "Inconstant, lord."...

"...Are fabrications constant or inconstant?" — "Inconstant, lord."...

"What do you think, Susima: Is consciousness constant or inconstant?" — "Inconstant, lord." — "And is that which is inconstant easeful or stressful?" — "Stressful, lord." — "And is it fitting to regard what is inconstant, stressful, subject to change as: 'This is mine. This is my self. This is what I am'?"

"No, lord."

"Thus, Susima, any form whatsoever that is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: every form is to be seen as it actually is with right discernment as: 'This is not mine. This is not my self. This is not what I am.'

"Any feeling whatsoever...

"Any perception whatsoever...

"Any fabrications whatsoever...

"Any consciousness whatsoever that is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: every consciousness is to be seen as it actually is with right discernment as: 'This is not mine. This is not my self. This is not what I am.'

"Seeing thus, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with form, disenchanted with feeling, disenchanted with perception, disenchanted with fabrications, disenchanted with consciousness. Disenchanted, he becomes dispassionate. Through dispassion, he is fully released. With full release, there is the knowledge, 'Fully released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'"

"Susima, do you see that from birth as a requisite condition there is aging & death?"

"Yes, lord."

"Do you see that from becoming as a requisite condition there is birth?"

"Yes, lord."

"Do you see that from clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition there is becoming?"

"Yes, lord."

"Do you see that from craving as a requisite condition there is clinging/sustenance?"

"Yes, lord."

"Do you see that from feeling as a requisite condition there is craving?"

"Yes, lord."

"Do you see that from contact as a requisite condition there is feeling?"

"Yes, lord."

"Do you see that from the six sense media as a requisite condition there is contact?"

"Yes, lord."

"Do you see that from name-&-form as a requisite condition there are the six sense media?"

"Yes, lord."

"Do you see that from consciousness as a requisite condition there is name-&-form?"

"Yes, lord."

"Do you see that from fabrications as a requisite condition there is consciousness?"

"Yes, lord."

"Do you see that from ignorance as a requisite condition there are fabrications?"

"Yes, lord."

"Now, Susima, do you see that from the cessation of birth there is the cessation of aging & death?"

"Yes, lord."

"Do you see that from the cessation of becoming there is the cessation of birth?"

"Yes, lord."

"Do you see that from the cessation of clinging/sustenance there is the cessation of becoming?"

"Yes, lord."

"Do you see that from the cessation of craving there is the cessation of clinging/sustenance?"

"Yes, lord."

"Do you see that from the cessation of feeling there is the cessation of craving?"

"Yes, lord."

"Do you see that from the cessation of contact there is the cessation of feeling?"

"Yes, lord."

"Do you see that from the cessation of the six sense media there is the cessation of contact?"

"Yes, lord."

"Do you see that from the cessation of name-&-form there is the cessation of the six sense media?"

"Yes, lord."

"Do you see that from the cessation of consciousness there is the cessation of name-&-form?"

"Yes, lord."

"Do you see that from the cessation of fabrications there is the cessation of consciousness?"

"Yes, lord."

"Do you see that from the cessation of ignorance there is the cessation of fabrications?"

"Yes, lord."

"Then, having known thus, having seen thus, Susima, do you wield manifold supranormal powers? Having been one you become many; having been many you become one? You appear? You vanish? You go unimpeded through walls, ramparts, & mountains as if through space? You dive in & out of the earth as if it were water? You walk on water without sinking as if it were dry land? Sitting crosslegged you fly through the air like a winged bird? With your hand you touch and stroke even the sun & moon, so mighty & powerful? You exercise influence with your body even as far as the Brahma worlds?"

"No, lord."

"Then, having known thus, having seen thus, Susima, do you hear — by means of the divine ear-element, purified & surpassing the human — both kinds of sounds: divine & human, whether near or far?"

"No, lord."

"Then, having known thus, having seen thus, Susima, do you know the awareness of other beings, other individuals, having encompassed it with your own awareness? Do you discern a mind with passion as a mind with passion, and a mind without passion as a mind without passion; a mind with aversion as a mind with aversion, and a mind without aversion as a mind without aversion; a mind with delusion as a mind with delusion, and a mind without delusion as a mind without delusion; a restricted mind as a restricted mind, and a scattered mind as a scattered mind; an enlarged mind as an enlarged mind, and an unenlarged mind as an unenlarged mind;an excelled mind [one that is not on the most excellent level] as an excelled mind, and an unexcelled mind as an unexcelled mind; a concentrated mind as a concentrated mind, and an unconcentrated mind as an unconcentrated mind; a released mind as a released mind, and an unreleased mind as an unreleased mind?"

"No, lord."

"Then, having known thus, having seen thus, Susima, do you recollect your manifold past lives, i.e., one birth, two births, three births, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, one hundred, one thousand, one hundred thousand births, many aeons of cosmic contraction, many aeons of cosmic expansion, many aeons of cosmic contraction & expansion, [recollecting], 'There I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose there. There too I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose here'?"

"No, lord."

"Then, having known thus, having seen thus, Susima, do you see — by means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human — beings passing away and re-appearing, and do you discern how they are inferior & superior, beautiful & ugly, fortunate & unfortunate in accordance with their kamma: 'These beings — who were endowed with bad conduct of body, speech, & mind, who reviled the noble ones, held wrong views and undertook actions under the influence of wrong views — with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell. But these beings — who were endowed with good conduct of body, speech, & mind, who did not revile the noble ones, who held right views and undertook actions under the influence of right views — with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the good destinations, in the heavenly world'?"

"No, lord."

"Then, having known thus, having seen thus, Susima, do you dwell touching with your body the peaceful emancipations, the formless states beyond form?"

"No, lord."


"So just now, Susima, didn't you make that declaration without having attained any of these Dhammas?"

Then, throwing himself down with his head at the Blessed One's feet, Ven. Susima said to the Blessed One, "A transgression has overcome me, lord, in that I was so foolish, so muddle-headed, & so unskilled as to go forth as a thief of the Dhamma in this well-taught Dhamma & Discipline! May the Blessed One please accept this confession of my transgression as such, so that I may restrain myself in the future."

"Yes, Susima, a transgression overcame you in that you were so foolish, so muddle-headed, & so unskilled as to go forth as a thief of the Dhamma in this well-taught Dhamma & Discipline. Suppose, Susima, that a robber, an evil-doer, having been caught, were shown to a king: 'This, your majesty, is a robber, an evil-doer. Decree what punishment you want for him.' And so the king would say, 'Go and — having bound him with a stout rope with his arms pinned tightly against his back, having shaved him bald — march him to a harsh-sounding drum from street to street, crossroads to crossroads; evict him out the south gate of the city and there, to the south of the city, cut off his head.' Then the king's men, having bound the man with a stout rope with his arms pinned tightly against his back, would march him to a harsh-sounding drum from street to street, crossroads to crossroads, evict him out the south gate of the city and there, to the south of the city, cut off his head. What do you think, Susima? Wouldn't that man, for that reason, experience pain & distress?"

"Yes, lord."

"However much the pain & distress that man would experience for that reason, Susima, the Going Forth of a thief of the Dhamma in this well-taught Dhamma & Discipline is still more painful in its result, more bitter in its result, in that it leads even to the lower realms. But because you see your transgression as such and make amends in accordance with the Dhamma, we accept your confession. For, Susima, it is a cause of growth in the Dhamma & Discipline of the noble ones when, seeing a transgression as such, one makes amends in accordance with the Dhamma and exercises restraint in the future."


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:anjali:
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