confusedlayman wrote: ↑Fri May 28, 2021 6:03 am
auto wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 3:29 pm
confusedlayman wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 10:28 am
so intentionally thoughts wont be fabricated... because there is background knowledge that thoughts will produce only suffering and change? is that what vism is trying to say?
Fabrication will be noticed falling away <-- if that is not seen you are not supposed to know about the impermanence, suffering, not self which is about not being able to find satisfaction etc.
It is the non-occurrence of consciousness, disruption in mind stream/life continuum and counterpart sign. Counterpart sign denotes the nearness of jhana.
If falling off the fabrication is noticed(by you) it means the mind goes for the nibbana, you see it occurs as it going for the nibbana and second thing what occurs to you is that the fabrications are ceased. Nibbana per se isn't an object, it is like fire goes out, no more fire.
But if concentration is not strong enough, but you still notice, then the mind will re-enter life continuum which is access concentration and from there can be attained concentration.
I think you need make difference between your regular thoughts and concentration and insight development. Vissudhimagga says that it is rare(very difficult) if one reach from access-concentration to the concentration in same session.
Non occurance of conciiusneess? I think nibbana is perceived so conciousness is there
You must understand what formations are meant when it comes to observing arising and ceasing. These are all kinds of mind and matter, absolute dhammas. These are the objects of the six senses and the mind contemplating them. As you practice insight, your mind becomes frustrated with objects and the mind that contemplates them. Then he naturally tends to stop. Objects and the mind contemplating them cease in one moment, and their cessation becomes the object of meditation. This is the dhamma of cessation. in this dhamma there are neither objects nor consciousnesses, since this dhamma is their personified cessation and total rest. although it is contemplated by the supramundane mind of the path and fruition, there is no mind in this dhamma itself. Since this is the dhamma of cessation, it is calm. Knowing this peace, the mind finally loses all attachment to the anxiety of the arising and ceasing of all formations.
When the supra-mundane mind contemplates the dhamma of cessation, it fully comprehends it, penetrates it with wisdom and, as it were, merges with it. That is, realizing, he still achieves cessation. at that moment the mind does not see itself, for it contemplates the dhamma of cessation in which all mind is ceasing.
The attainment of the path and fruition should not be confused with Nirodha Samapati. In nirodha there is not even contemplation of the dhamma of cessation. there all mental activity ceases completely. but at the moment of exiting nirodha-samapati, the newly born mind comes into contact with nibbana-dhamma.
Contact with nibbana dhamma burns away all defilements, quenches thirst, and removes clinging to the five aggregates, death, and rebirth. If the fruit of an arahant is attained, complete purification of the mind takes place. after death, the five aggregates disintegrate and the dhamma of nibbana, complete cessation is realized in the body of an arahant - enveloping his mind and body with the peace of non-arising. it is the cessation of the mind and body, which is no longer known by any minds, even by the supramundane mind of the path and fruition. This mind arises before death once and then everything goes out at once completely.
The fact is that the supramundane mind of the path and the fruition, although it takes the dhamma of cessation as its own object, requires, in addition to the object, the presence of vital energy and nama-rupa, which constitutes the mental support. The supramundane cittas are mano-vinnana. Mano-vinnana arises on the basis of mano-dhamma and mano-dwara. With the cessation of the name-form, the supramundane minds fade away, and the dhamma of cessation is finally realized, covering the entire body and mind of the arahant with its total peace and the quality of cessation. This state is similar to immersion in nirodha-samapati, which the Buddha called the supreme happiness of non-feeling. The difference is that nirodha is a constructed achievement, you can get out of it, and the body is alive and warm, and this state of nibbana is permanent without any support left, it is impossible to get out or fall out of it. The body is not alive, and not warm.
This and only this is the cessation of suffering.