experience of nibbana- help

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
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confusedlayman
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experience of nibbana- help

Post by confusedlayman »

12. Insight Leading to Emergence
So, through knowledge of equanimity about formations, which is endowed with many virtues, blessings, and powers, he notices the formations as they occur. When this knowledge is mature, having become keen, strong, and lucid, on reaching its culmination point, it will understand any of the formations as being impermanent or painful or without self, just by seeing their dissolution. Now that act of noticing any one characteristic out of the three, which is still more lucid in its perfect understanding, manifests itself two or three times or more in rapid succession. This is called "insight leading to emergence."[40]

Thereupon, immediately after the last consciousness in the series of acts of noticing belonging to this insight leading to emergence, the meditator's consciousness leaps forth into Nibbana, which is the cessation of all formations, taking it as its object. Then there appears to him the stilling (subsidence) of all formations called cessation.

This mode of realization of Nibbana has been mentioned in many discourses of the Master, for example: "The vision of truth arose: whatsoever has the nature of arising is bound to cease." Herein the words "bound to cease" indicate the aspect of realizing the stilling and ceasing of all formations which have the nature of arising.

Also in the Questions of King Milinda it is said: "His consciousness, while carrying on the practice of bringing to mind (i.e., noticing), passes beyond the continuous occurrence of phenomena and alights upon non-occurrence. One who, having practiced in the correct manner, has alighted upon non-occurrence, O king, is said to have realized Nibbana."

The meaning is this: the meditator who wishes to realize Nibbana should repeatedly bring to mind, through the practice of noticing, every bodily and mental process that appears at any of the six sense doors. When he brings them to mind thus, his consciousness engaged in noticing — here called "bringing to mind" — will, until adaptation knowledge is reached, fall at every moment upon the (conditioned) bodily and mental formations called here "continuous occurrence," because they go on occurring over and over again in an unbroken flow, like a river's current. But in the last phase, instead of falling upon that continuous occurrence, consciousness passes beyond it and alights upon "non-occurrence," which is the very opposite of the bodily and mental formations called here "occurrence." In other words, it arrives at non-occurrence, that is to say, it reaches, as if it "alights upon," cessation, which is the stilling of the formations (or conditioned phenomena). When the meditator, having already before practiced correctly and without deviation by way of the knowledge of arising and passing away and the other knowledges (or by way of the purification of conduct, of mind, of view, etc.), has in this manner arrived at non-occurrence (by the consciousness alighting upon it), he is said to have "realized Nibbana." He is called one who has made Nibbana a direct experience and has actually seen it.
---------

can someone tell me the meaning of above passage and what to expect... is the above passage saying nibbana is perceived as object dependent on any view? if a meditator finds bliss as insight into corruption because bliss will change and its non path.. why nibbana as object is not insight corruption when perceiving nothingness (non occurrence of anything) is also temporary and intentionally done? I know im blabbering now but what the above passage says?
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
auto
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Re: experience of nibbana- help

Post by auto »

Formations arise and pass away, practicing noting so long till your mind gets alighted by the non-occurrence of consciousness a'la mind takes nibbana as its object - When formation passes away there won't any other formation arise, because mind finally notices the non-occurrence.
Nibbana is a made up word for it.

I quote some things from MCTB(Daniel Ingram book), since this book inspired by Visuddhimagga and is written from experience.
mctb wrote:15. Fruition (see the chapter called The
Three Doors). They reveal a way out of the paradox of duality, the
maddening sense that “this” is observing/controlling/subject to/separated
from/etc. a “that.” By containing all or nearly all of the sensations
comprising one moment in a very integrated way, they contain the
necessary clarity to see through the fundamental illusions.
mctb wrote:Formations contain within them the seeming gap between this and
that, as well as sensations of effort, intimacy, resistance, acceptance, and
all other such aspects of sensations from which a sense of self is more
easily inferred. Thus, these aspects begin to be seen in their proper
place, their proper context, i.e. as an interdependent part of reality, and
not split off or a self.
mctb wrote:15. FRUITION
..
Reality stops cold and then reappears.
..
To “external time” (if someone were observing the meditator from the outside) this lasts only an instant. It is
like an utter discontinuity of the space-time continuum with nothing in
the unfindable gap.
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Re: experience of nibbana- help

Post by confusedlayman »

non occurrence how long it takes? is it same as focusing on cessation?
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Re: experience of nibbana- help

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when mind is not creating new formation, is it still aware of what's going on in sense?
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Re: experience of nibbana- help

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confusedlayman wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 8:11 am can someone tell me the meaning of above passage and what to expect... is the above passage saying nibbana is perceived as object dependent on any view? if a meditator finds bliss as insight into corruption because bliss will change and its non path.. why nibbana as object is not insight corruption when perceiving nothingness (non occurrence of anything) is also temporary and intentionally done? I know im blabbering now but what the above passage says?
Nibbāna is an external dhamma which is cognised as the mind. The signless, desireless and emptiness are 3 entry points into nibbāna since they are 3 aspects of nibbāna
71. And here the signless liberation should be understood as the noble path that has occurred by making Nibbána its object through the signless aspect. For that path is signless owing to the signless element having arisen, and it is a liberation owing to deliverance from defilements.34 In the same way the path that has occurred by making Nibbána its object through the desireless aspect is desireless. And the path that has occurred by making Nibbána its object through the void aspect is void.
Visuddhimagga - CHAPTER XXI Purification by Knowledge and Vision of the Way
8. Here is a simile: [674] A man with eyes went out at night, it seems, to find out the conjunction of the stars, and he looked up to see the moon. It was invisible because it was concealed by clouds. Then a wind sprang up and blew away the thick clouds; another blew away the medium clouds; and another blew away the fine clouds as well. Then the man saw the moon in the sky free from clouds, and he found out the conjunction of the stars.
9. Herein, the thick, medium and fine kinds of darkness that conceal the truths are like the three kinds of cloud. The three kinds of conformity consciousness are like the three winds. Change-of-lineage knowledge is like the man with eyes. Nibbána is like the moon. The dispelling of the murk that conceals the truths by each kind of conformity consciousness is like the successive blowing away of the clouds by each wind. Change-of-lineage knowledge’s seeing the clear Nibbána when the murk that concealed the truths has disappeared is like the man’s seeing the clear moon in the sky free from cloud.
10. Just as the three winds are able only to blow away the clouds that conceal the moon but cannot see the moon, so the three kinds of conformity are able only to dispel the murk that conceals the truths but cannot see Nibbána. Just as the man can only see the moon but cannot blow away the clouds, so change-oflineage knowledge can only see Nibbána but cannot dispel the defilements. Hence it is called “adverting to the path.”
Visuddhimagga - CHAPTER XXII Purification by Knowledge and Vision
Just because saṃsāra is beginningless and endless, one should not have any concept of time regarding nibbāna. Again, just because innumerable Buddhas, Solitary Buddhas, and Noble Disciples have entered parinibbāna, one should not associate nibbāna with numbers. The idea of the endless cycle of rebirth pertains only to mental and material phenomena that are subject to the process of arising and cessation, or momentary births and deaths. Don’t let that lengthy process linger in your mind when you consider nibbāna. For nibbāna is real, whereas time is a concept. Saṃsāra is infinite, but nibbāna cannot be said to have any beginning at all. One is apt to get confused since nibbāna is the very antithesis of saṃsāra. Saṃsāra is an endless process that defies measurement. Nibbāna exists in the ultimate sense, whereas the existences of beings are always changing and do not remain for a moment. Do not think of nibbāna with any reference to the transient world. Do not wonder about the present location of the former Noble Ones. For example, as a train moves along, trees at a distance seem to be moving along with it, but in fact the trees are stationary. Similarly, saṃsāra moves on like the train, but nibbāna is motionless like the distant trees. The reflection of the moon at its zenith would appear in every ray of water, if rays were placed in every house in Asia. The number of moons reflected in the rays has nothing to do with the actual moon. = The reflections are like those who have passed on to nibbāna, and nibbāna is like the moon. This, then, is a short explanation about nibbāna or deliverance, with particular emphasis on the fact that nibbāna is not for any “person” to enter. This is the answer to the third question. Plen of treatises on nibbāna have been written by learned scholars. Here, only a résumé has been given on this vast subject.

- A Manual of the Excellent Man by Ledi Sayadaw
“The mental and material are really here,
But here there is no human being to be found,
For it is void and merely fashioned like a doll—
Just suffering piled up like grass and sticks.”


Visuddhimagga
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Re: experience of nibbana- help

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A bit more detail:
69. So these three clauses should be understood to express the contemplations of impermanence, and so on. Hence in the answer to the next question [asked in the Paþisambhidá] it is said: “When he brings [them] to mind as impermanent, formations appear as liable to destruction. When he brings them to mind as painful, formations appear as a terror. When he brings them to mind as not-self, formations appear as void” (Paþis II 48).
70. What are the liberations to which these contemplations are the gateways? They are these three, namely, the signless, the desireless, and the void. For this is said: “When one who has great resolution brings [formations] to mind as impermanent, he acquires the signless liberation. When one who has great tranquillity brings [them] to mind as painful, he acquires the desireless liberation. When one who has great wisdom brings [them] to mind as not-self, he acquires the void liberation” (Paþis II 58).
71. And here the signless liberation should be understood as the noble path that has occurred by making Nibbána its object through the signless aspect. For that path is signless owing to the signless element having arisen, and it is a liberation owing to deliverance from defilements.34 In the same way the path that has occurred by making Nibbána its object through the desireless aspect is desireless. And the path that has occurred by making Nibbána its object through the void aspect is void.
Visuddhimagga - CHAPTER XXI Purification by Knowledge and Vision of the Way
“The mental and material are really here,
But here there is no human being to be found,
For it is void and merely fashioned like a doll—
Just suffering piled up like grass and sticks.”


Visuddhimagga
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Re: experience of nibbana- help

Post by auto »

confusedlayman wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 7:58 am non occurrence how long it takes? is it same as focusing on cessation?
Noticing non-occurrence(fading away) is momentary while nibbana is absolute. So it is not in terms of how long you focus on non-occurrence. And the contemplation constitutes as a path only when momentary and absolute fading away is seen together.
pdf 342 wrote:Herein, “fading away
as destruction” is the momentary dissolution of formations. “Absolute fading
away” is Nibbána.
Contemplation of fading away is insight and it is the path,
which occurs as the seeing of these two.
After that you are able to induce non-occurrence at will by starving the reason why consciousness would arise and thus in the future this consciousness won't arise anymore at all.
pdf 342 wrote: Contemplating relinquishment: relinquishment is of two kinds too, that
is to say, relinquishment as giving up, and relinquishment as entering into.
..
..through substitution of opposite
qualities, it gives up defilements with their aggregate-producing kamma
formations,..

and [secondly], through seeing the wretchedness of what is formed,
it also enters into Nibbána by inclining towards Nibbána, which is the opposite
of the formed (XI.18). Also the path is called both “relinquishment as giving up”
and “relinquishment as entering into” since it gives up defilements with their
aggregate-producing kamma-formations by cutting them off, and it enters into
Nibbána by making it its object. Also both [insight and path knowledge] are
called contemplation (anupassaná) because of their re-seeing successively (anu
anu passaná) each preceding kind of knowledge
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Re: experience of nibbana- help

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So technically stopping thinking is nibbana? Even though there is awareness of sence object arising and ceasing... or focus mind of non perception non thinking where even the sence fields awarness is not there
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Re: experience of nibbana- help

Post by auto »

confusedlayman wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 6:44 pm So technically stopping thinking is nibbana? Even though there is awareness of sence object arising and ceasing... or focus mind of non perception non thinking where even the sence fields awarness is not there
Formations are taken as object when the insight has developed to the point it confirms the 4 noble truths, then immediatly consciousness becomes absorbed in cessation(non-occurrence of consciousness) with the attainment of fruition but not path.
p790 wrote:He should see formations
with insight according to rise and fall and so on.
When that insight has
progressed [as far as conformity], then comes change-of-lineage knowledge
with formations as its object.4 And immediately next to it consciousness becomes
absorbed in cessation with the attainment of fruition. And here it is only fruition,
not path, that arises even in a trainer, because his tendency is to fruition
attainment.
it is a requirement to have bliss here and now. Imagine one needs have fruition to then able to do jhana.
p790 wrote:8. (iv) Why do they attain it? For the purpose of abiding in bliss here and now.
For just as a king experiences royal bliss and a deity experiences divine bliss, so
too the Noble Ones think, “We shall experience the noble supramundane bliss,”
and after deciding on the duration, they attain the attainment of fruition whenever
they choose.3
it is explaining this,
p789 wrote:“How is it that understanding of the tranquilizing of
effort is knowledge of fruit? At the moment of the stream-entry path right view in
the sense of seeing emerges from wrong view, and it emerges from the defilements
and from the aggregates that occur consequent upon that [wrong view], and
externally it emerges from all signs. Right view arises because of the tranquilizing
of that effort. This is the fruit of the path” (Paþis I 71),
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Re: experience of nibbana- help

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auto wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 2:00 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 6:44 pm So technically stopping thinking is nibbana? Even though there is awareness of sence object arising and ceasing... or focus mind of non perception non thinking where even the sence fields awarness is not there
Formations are taken as object when the insight has developed to the point it confirms the 4 noble truths, then immediatly consciousness becomes absorbed in cessation(non-occurrence of consciousness) with the attainment of fruition but not path.
p790 wrote:He should see formations
with insight according to rise and fall and so on.
When that insight has
progressed [as far as conformity], then comes change-of-lineage knowledge
with formations as its object.4 And immediately next to it consciousness becomes
absorbed in cessation with the attainment of fruition. And here it is only fruition,
not path, that arises even in a trainer, because his tendency is to fruition
attainment.
it is a requirement to have bliss here and now. Imagine one needs have fruition to then able to do jhana.
p790 wrote:8. (iv) Why do they attain it? For the purpose of abiding in bliss here and now.
For just as a king experiences royal bliss and a deity experiences divine bliss, so
too the Noble Ones think, “We shall experience the noble supramundane bliss,”
and after deciding on the duration, they attain the attainment of fruition whenever
they choose.3
it is explaining this,
p789 wrote:“How is it that understanding of the tranquilizing of
effort is knowledge of fruit? At the moment of the stream-entry path right view in
the sense of seeing emerges from wrong view, and it emerges from the defilements
and from the aggregates that occur consequent upon that [wrong view], and
externally it emerges from all signs. Right view arises because of the tranquilizing
of that effort. This is the fruit of the path” (Paþis I 71),
so one is aware of changing phenomena but dont take it as I or MY similar to bare awareness
or one focus on imaginary focus on nothingness ?
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
pegembara
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Re: experience of nibbana- help

Post by pegembara »

Nibbana is the cessation of experience. Absence/Nirodha of sankharas or formations. Or noting the interval/gap between the arising. Or noticing the non arising of sights, sounds, smells, taste, touch, thoughts, feelings, perception, volition ie. cessation. The STOPPING, zero, nothing, "nada", zilch.
"This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all acquisitions, the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Nibbana.".
For it is in this fathom-long carcass with its perception and mind that I describe the world, its origin, its cessation, and the practice that leads to its cessation.
There is, monks, an unborn[1] — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated. If there were not that unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, there would not be the case that escape from the born — become — made — fabricated would be discerned. But precisely because there is an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, escape from the born — become — made — fabricated is discerned.[2]
I have heard that on one occasion Ven. Sariputta was staying near Rajagaha in the Bamboo Grove, the Squirrels' Feeding Sanctuary. There he said to the monks, "This Unbinding is pleasant, friends. This Unbinding is pleasant."

When this was said, Ven. Udayin said to Ven. Sariputta, "But what is the pleasure here, my friend, where there is nothing felt?"

"Just that is the pleasure here, my friend: where there is nothing felt.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Re: experience of nibbana- help

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pegembara wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 2:18 pm Nibbana is the cessation of experience.
If nibbāna is cessation then it doesn’t exist. Rather, nibbāna is an existing ultimate reality.
Great seers who are free from craving declare that Nibbana is an objective state which is deathless, absolutely endless, unconditioned, and unsurpassed. Thus as fourfold the Tathagatas reveal the ultimate realities— consciousness, mental factors, matter, and Nibbana.
- Abhidhammattha-saṅgaha
Just because saṃsāra is beginningless and endless, one should not have any concept of time regarding nibbāna. Again, just because innumerable Buddhas, Solitary Buddhas, and Noble Disciples have entered parinibbāna, one should not associate nibbāna with numbers.

The idea of the endless cycle of rebirth pertains only to mental and material phenomena that are subject to the process of arising and cessation, or momentary births and deaths. Don’t let that lengthy process linger in your mind when you consider nibbāna. For nibbāna is real, whereas time is a concept. Saṃsāra is infinite, but nibbāna cannot be said to have any beginning at all. One is apt to get confused since nibbāna is the very antithesis of saṃsāra. Saṃsāra is an endless process that defies measurement. Nibbāna exists in the ultimate sense, whereas the existences of beings are always changing and do not remain for a moment. Do not think of nibbāna with any reference to the transient world. Do not wonder about the present location of the former Noble Ones. For example, as a train moves along, trees at a distance seem to be moving along with it, but in fact the trees are stationary. Similarly, saṃsāra moves on like the train, but nibbāna is motionless like the distant trees. The reflection of the moon at its zenith would appear in every ray of water, if rays were placed in every house in Asia. The number of moons reflected in the rays has nothing to do with the actual moon. The reflections are like those who have passed on to nibbāna, and nibbāna is like the moon.

This, then, is a short explanation about nibbāna or deliverance, with particular emphasis on the fact that nibbāna is not for any “person” to enter.
- Ledi Sayādaw

https://www.holybooks.com/wp-content/up ... nt-Man.pdf
In the triplet of "insight", "by insight" means "by the path of the stream-winner". For it is called insight because of the first glimpse of nibbāna... For feeling, whether it be in the past, future or present, is [after all and always] just feeling. And so is perception, so are mental activities, so is consciousness. But Nibbāna, though it be for all time, is always Nibbāna."
- Atthasālinī (The Expositor)
“The mental and material are really here,
But here there is no human being to be found,
For it is void and merely fashioned like a doll—
Just suffering piled up like grass and sticks.”


Visuddhimagga
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Re: experience of nibbana- help

Post by auto »

confusedlayman wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 2:08 pm so one is aware of changing phenomena but dont take it as I or MY similar to bare awareness
or one focus on imaginary focus on nothingness ?
on emerging from jhana one sees formation in it with insight as impermanent, painful, not-self.
p796 wrote:32. But the detail is this. When a bhikkhu who desires to attain cessation has
finished all that has to do with his meal and has washed his hands and feet
well, he sits down on a well-prepared seat in a secluded place. Having folded
his legs crosswise, set his body erect, established mindfulness in front of him, he
attains the first jhána, and on emerging he sees the formations in it with insight
as impermanent, painful, not-self.
cessation only possible who strives with both: insight and serenity.
p796 wrote:One who strives with serenity alone reaches the
base consisting of neither perception nor non-perception and remains there, while
one who strives with insight alone reaches the attainment of fruition and remains
there. But it is one who strives with both, and after performing the preparatory tasks,
causes the cessation of [consciousness belonging to] the base consisting of neither
perception nor non-perception, who attains it. This is in brief.
I think what you saying about bare awareness is under the preparatory tasks,
p769 wrote:30. (v) Why do they attain it? Being wearied by the occurrence and dissolution
of formations, they attain it thinking, “Let us dwell in bliss by being without
consciousness here and now and reaching the cessation that is Nibbána.”13
31. (vi) How does its attainment come about? It comes about in one who performs
the preparatory tasks by striving with serenity and insight and causes the
cessation of [consciousness belonging to] the base consisting of neither
perception nor non-perception.
bare awareness is being aware of the actual process a'la full awareness. So it isn't imaginary focus on nothingness. The object is disrupting that full awareness and you are forced to see rising and falling away.
https://saddhamma.org/pdfs/mahasi-pract ... tation.pdf wrote:Continue with this exercise in full awareness of the abdomen's rising and falling
movements. Never verbally repeat the words, rising, falling, and do not think of rising
and falling as words. Be aware only of the actual process of the rising and falling
movements of the abdomen.
but quotes like these can easily give wrong idea about the reasons why this practice is done. The main idea is to notice the arising and passing away, breath is just an learning object,
https://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?p=600538#p600538 wrote:In view
of this difficulty, you may be inclined to think, "I just don't know how to keep my mind
on each of these movements." Then simply remember that this is a learning process. The
rising and falling movements of the abdomen are always present and therefore there is no
need to look for them. Actually it is easy for a beginner to keep his or her mind on these
two simple movements.
learn to use search engine too, if you haven't yet doing so.
pegembara
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Re: experience of nibbana- help

Post by pegembara »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 2:34 pm
pegembara wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 2:18 pm Nibbana is the cessation of experience.
If nibbāna is cessation then it doesn’t exist. Rather, nibbāna is an existing ultimate reality.
Are you saying that experiences don't exist because they cease?
The Uncreated does not arise or cease. If it ceases, it belongs to the conditioned.
It exists but not as you imagined it to be as some "ultimate reality".
"I tell you, friend, that it is not possible by traveling to know or see or reach a far end of the cosmos where one does not take birth, age, die, pass away, or reappear. But at the same time, I tell you that there is no making an end of suffering & stress without reaching the end of the cosmos. Yet it is just within this fathom-long body, with its perception & intellect, that I declare that there is the cosmos, the origination of the cosmos, the cessation of the cosmos, and the path of practice leading to the cessation of the cosmos."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"By and large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence and non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one.
All the stages of meditation that I keep talking about – they just happen seamlessly, just as they do when you die, so you let go. Let go, let go, die, die, die. Then perhaps you’ll understand what Ajahn Chah meant when he asked, “Have you come here to die?”

https://www.dhammatalks.net/Books7/Ajah ... to_die.htm
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Re: experience of nibbana- help

Post by confusedlayman »

so intentionally thoughts wont be fabricated... because there is background knowledge that thoughts will produce only suffering and change? is that what vism is trying to say?
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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