experience of nibbana- help

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
auto
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Re: experience of nibbana- help

Post by auto »

confusedlayman wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 10:28 am so intentionally thoughts wont be fabricated... because there is background knowledge that thoughts will produce only suffering and change? is that what vism is trying to say?
Fabrication will be noticed falling away <-- if that is not seen you are not supposed to know about the impermanence, suffering, not self which is about not being able to find satisfaction etc.
It is the non-occurrence of consciousness, disruption in mind stream/life continuum and counterpart sign. Counterpart sign denotes the nearness of jhana.
If falling off the fabrication is noticed(by you) it means the mind goes for the nibbana, you see it occurs as it going for the nibbana and second thing what occurs to you is that the fabrications are ceased. Nibbana per se isn't an object, it is like fire goes out, no more fire.
But if concentration is not strong enough, but you still notice, then the mind will re-enter life continuum which is access concentration and from there can be attained concentration.

I think you need make difference between your regular thoughts and concentration and insight development. Vissudhimagga says that it is rare(very difficult) if one reach from access-concentration to the concentration in same session.
Nobodyisspecial
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Re: experience of nibbana- help

Post by Nobodyisspecial »

Obviously it does not make much sense, until you experience it. Try explaining or imagining altered states of consciousness to someone who never has experienced them. It's a bit ineffable, a bit beyond imagination. When you can relate with the writer because you have been there done that, is a location that you know and are not confused about. That is paraphrasing webu sayadaw. Great author on nibbana. His writings are on access to insight.
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Re: experience of nibbana- help

Post by confusedlayman »

auto wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 3:29 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 10:28 am so intentionally thoughts wont be fabricated... because there is background knowledge that thoughts will produce only suffering and change? is that what vism is trying to say?
Fabrication will be noticed falling away <-- if that is not seen you are not supposed to know about the impermanence, suffering, not self which is about not being able to find satisfaction etc.
It is the non-occurrence of consciousness, disruption in mind stream/life continuum and counterpart sign. Counterpart sign denotes the nearness of jhana.
If falling off the fabrication is noticed(by you) it means the mind goes for the nibbana, you see it occurs as it going for the nibbana and second thing what occurs to you is that the fabrications are ceased. Nibbana per se isn't an object, it is like fire goes out, no more fire.
But if concentration is not strong enough, but you still notice, then the mind will re-enter life continuum which is access concentration and from there can be attained concentration.

I think you need make difference between your regular thoughts and concentration and insight development. Vissudhimagga says that it is rare(very difficult) if one reach from access-concentration to the concentration in same session.
Non occurance of conciiusneess? I think nibbana is perceived so conciousness is there
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
auto
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Re: experience of nibbana- help

Post by auto »

confusedlayman wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 6:03 am Non occurance of conciiusneess? I think nibbana is perceived so conciousness is there
You have at least two things to think over,
Does non-occurrence of consciousness mean that the consciousness is absent?
and
in Vissudhimagga it is said,
p793 wrote:18. Herein, (i) What is the attainment of cessation? It is the non-occurrence of
consciousness and its concomitants owing to their progressive cessation.
Progressive cessation i think refer to the 1-8 jhana, and definite is the cessation of perception and feeling(non-occurrence of consciousness where nothing is felt=bliss and signless=non-existence is perceived)

Dukkha knowledges of fearing the arising(accumulating) of formations, arising of formation(2nd link) will arouse consciousness(3rd link) and you suffer(1st noble truth). The non-occurrence of consciousness is when the formations doesn't arise, you anticipate the dangers a'la money making, mates, rich food etc in order to avoid arousing the consciousness.

Yet, what missing is your mind alighting in the non-arising of formations, which is the absorption in the sign(formations being impermanent, suffering and not self =marks of non-existence) where the fruition is.

search non-occurrence on the Visuddhimagga pdf
p 734 wrote: “(4.c.) Knowledge of the state of peace is this: ‘Arising is formations; nonarising
is Nibbána.’ Knowledge of the state of peace is this: ‘Occurrence is
formations; non-occurrence is Nibbána’ … (etc.) … Knowledge of the state of
peace is this: ‘Despair is formations; non-despair is Nibbána.’ [649]
that non-arising is nibbana talk is prior the non-occurrence of consciousness in order to comfort those who are in terror,
pdf wrote:40. Knowledge of the state of peace is this: “Non-arising is safety,” etc.: this, however,
should be understood as said for the purpose of showing the opposite kind of
knowledge to knowledge of danger. Or when it is stated in this way, that there is
safety without terror and free from danger, it is for the purpose of comforting
those who are upset in their hearts by seeing danger through appearance as
terror.
..
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Re: experience of nibbana- help

Post by cappuccino »

confusedlayman wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 6:03 am I think nibbana is perceived so consciousness is there
:goodpost:
JohnSo
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Re: experience of nibbana- help

Post by JohnSo »

:juggling: ... Nibbana? It is a long way to go. The question is, (whatever your techniques is) stay on it & make sure it works perfectly. If you are with Mahasi Technique, make sure that you see perfectly the rising & falling of the abdomen. If you are with Pa Auk Technique, make sure that you could concentrate at the given point. Realize what is available, instead of longing for something that beyond the horizon, and longing is also another problem that has arise.
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Re: experience of nibbana- help

Post by Mudryj »

confusedlayman wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 6:03 am
auto wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 3:29 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 10:28 am so intentionally thoughts wont be fabricated... because there is background knowledge that thoughts will produce only suffering and change? is that what vism is trying to say?
Fabrication will be noticed falling away <-- if that is not seen you are not supposed to know about the impermanence, suffering, not self which is about not being able to find satisfaction etc.
It is the non-occurrence of consciousness, disruption in mind stream/life continuum and counterpart sign. Counterpart sign denotes the nearness of jhana.
If falling off the fabrication is noticed(by you) it means the mind goes for the nibbana, you see it occurs as it going for the nibbana and second thing what occurs to you is that the fabrications are ceased. Nibbana per se isn't an object, it is like fire goes out, no more fire.
But if concentration is not strong enough, but you still notice, then the mind will re-enter life continuum which is access concentration and from there can be attained concentration.

I think you need make difference between your regular thoughts and concentration and insight development. Vissudhimagga says that it is rare(very difficult) if one reach from access-concentration to the concentration in same session.
Non occurance of conciiusneess? I think nibbana is perceived so conciousness is there
You must understand what formations are meant when it comes to observing arising and ceasing. These are all kinds of mind and matter, absolute dhammas. These are the objects of the six senses and the mind contemplating them. As you practice insight, your mind becomes frustrated with objects and the mind that contemplates them. Then he naturally tends to stop. Objects and the mind contemplating them cease in one moment, and their cessation becomes the object of meditation. This is the dhamma of cessation. in this dhamma there are neither objects nor consciousnesses, since this dhamma is their personified cessation and total rest. although it is contemplated by the supramundane mind of the path and fruition, there is no mind in this dhamma itself. Since this is the dhamma of cessation, it is calm. Knowing this peace, the mind finally loses all attachment to the anxiety of the arising and ceasing of all formations.

When the supra-mundane mind contemplates the dhamma of cessation, it fully comprehends it, penetrates it with wisdom and, as it were, merges with it. That is, realizing, he still achieves cessation. at that moment the mind does not see itself, for it contemplates the dhamma of cessation in which all mind is ceasing.

The attainment of the path and fruition should not be confused with Nirodha Samapati. In nirodha there is not even contemplation of the dhamma of cessation. there all mental activity ceases completely. but at the moment of exiting nirodha-samapati, the newly born mind comes into contact with nibbana-dhamma.

Contact with nibbana dhamma burns away all defilements, quenches thirst, and removes clinging to the five aggregates, death, and rebirth. If the fruit of an arahant is attained, complete purification of the mind takes place. after death, the five aggregates disintegrate and the dhamma of nibbana, complete cessation is realized in the body of an arahant - enveloping his mind and body with the peace of non-arising. it is the cessation of the mind and body, which is no longer known by any minds, even by the supramundane mind of the path and fruition. This mind arises before death once and then everything goes out at once completely.

The fact is that the supramundane mind of the path and the fruition, although it takes the dhamma of cessation as its own object, requires, in addition to the object, the presence of vital energy and nama-rupa, which constitutes the mental support. The supramundane cittas are mano-vinnana. Mano-vinnana arises on the basis of mano-dhamma and mano-dwara. With the cessation of the name-form, the supramundane minds fade away, and the dhamma of cessation is finally realized, covering the entire body and mind of the arahant with its total peace and the quality of cessation. This state is similar to immersion in nirodha-samapati, which the Buddha called the supreme happiness of non-feeling. The difference is that nirodha is a constructed achievement, you can get out of it, and the body is alive and warm, and this state of nibbana is permanent without any support left, it is impossible to get out or fall out of it. The body is not alive, and not warm.
This and only this is the cessation of suffering.
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Re: experience of nibbana- help

Post by Maarten »

pegembara wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 2:18 pm Nibbana is the cessation of experience. Absence/Nirodha of sankharas or formations. Or noting the interval/gap between the arising. Or noticing the non arising of sights, sounds, smells, taste, touch, thoughts, feelings, perception, volition ie. cessation. The STOPPING, zero, nothing, "nada", zilch.
"This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all acquisitions, the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Nibbana.".
For it is in this fathom-long carcass with its perception and mind that I describe the world, its origin, its cessation, and the practice that leads to its cessation.
There is, monks, an unborn[1] — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated. If there were not that unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, there would not be the case that escape from the born — become — made — fabricated would be discerned. But precisely because there is an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, escape from the born — become — made — fabricated is discerned.[2]
I have heard that on one occasion Ven. Sariputta was staying near Rajagaha in the Bamboo Grove, the Squirrels' Feeding Sanctuary. There he said to the monks, "This Unbinding is pleasant, friends. This Unbinding is pleasant."

When this was said, Ven. Udayin said to Ven. Sariputta, "But what is the pleasure here, my friend, where there is nothing felt?"

"Just that is the pleasure here, my friend: where there is nothing felt.
:goodpost:

Nibbana literally means extinguishment. The Buddha compares it with a flame going out, so he makes it very clear. Yet people keep on trying to make Nibbana into something else because they think extinguishment is scary.
'Suppose there were a beetle, a dung-eater, full of dung, gorged with dung, with a huge pile of dung in front of him. He, because of that, would look down on other beetles: 'Yes, sirree! I am a dung-eater, full of dung, gorged with dung, with a huge pile of dung in front of me!' - SN 17.5
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Re: experience of nibbana- help

Post by pegembara »

Maarten wrote: Tue Feb 15, 2022 2:27 am
pegembara wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 2:18 pm Nibbana is the cessation of experience. Absence/Nirodha of sankharas or formations. Or noting the interval/gap between the arising. Or noticing the non arising of sights, sounds, smells, taste, touch, thoughts, feelings, perception, volition ie. cessation. The STOPPING, zero, nothing, "nada", zilch.
"This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all acquisitions, the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Nibbana.".
For it is in this fathom-long carcass with its perception and mind that I describe the world, its origin, its cessation, and the practice that leads to its cessation.
There is, monks, an unborn[1] — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated. If there were not that unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, there would not be the case that escape from the born — become — made — fabricated would be discerned. But precisely because there is an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, escape from the born — become — made — fabricated is discerned.[2]
I have heard that on one occasion Ven. Sariputta was staying near Rajagaha in the Bamboo Grove, the Squirrels' Feeding Sanctuary. There he said to the monks, "This Unbinding is pleasant, friends. This Unbinding is pleasant."

When this was said, Ven. Udayin said to Ven. Sariputta, "But what is the pleasure here, my friend, where there is nothing felt?"

"Just that is the pleasure here, my friend: where there is nothing felt.
:goodpost:

Nibbana literally means extinguishment. The Buddha compares it with a flame going out, so he makes it very clear. Yet people keep on trying to make Nibbana into something else because they think extinguishment is scary.
Extinguishment of greed, hatred and delusion... That is all that is extinguished. :anjali:
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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cappuccino
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Re: experience of nibbana- help

Post by cappuccino »

Maarten wrote: Tue Feb 15, 2022 2:27 am they think extinguishment is scary.
Not scary, however


You can’t seek annihilation


You can’t try to attain it
Maarten
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Re: experience of nibbana- help

Post by Maarten »

cappuccino wrote: Sat Feb 19, 2022 5:04 am
Maarten wrote: Tue Feb 15, 2022 2:27 am they think extinguishment is scary.
Not scary, however


You can’t seek annihilation


You can’t try to attain it
Yes, if you desire this you would do so out of Ill will for existence.
'Suppose there were a beetle, a dung-eater, full of dung, gorged with dung, with a huge pile of dung in front of him. He, because of that, would look down on other beetles: 'Yes, sirree! I am a dung-eater, full of dung, gorged with dung, with a huge pile of dung in front of me!' - SN 17.5
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