The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

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ssasny
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by ssasny »

I think the two words that might be confused (using the PTS Dictionary entries) are:

Pabhava (m. & nt.) [fr. pa+bhu, cp. Ved. prabhava] production, origin, source, cause

and

Pabhā (f.) [fr. pa+bhā, cp. Epic Sk. prabhā] light, radiance, shine

Note the difference in spellings and the two different roots the words are derived from.

When pabhā (a feminine noun) is used as an adjective to describe viññāṇaṃ (a neuter noun) it matches in the neuter gender, thus viññāṇaṃ pabhaṃ.

There is also sometimes a confusion between 2 homonyms bhāsati, one meaning 'to speak' from the root √bhāṣ, and one meaning 'to shine', (from the same above root)

I hope this helps clear things up.
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Dhammanando
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Dhammanando »

Lal wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 5:34 pmBhikkhu Sujato translates, “viññāṇaṁ anidassanaṁ anantaṁ sabbato pabhaṁ” as “consciousness that is invisible, infinite, entirely given up;” “On the Invitation of Brahmā (MN 49) (https://suttacentral.net/mn49/en/sujato ... ript=latin).” I have no idea how he translated “pabhaṁ” as “given up.”
I should imagine that like Ven. Ñānavīra he is going with the variant reading sabbatopahaṁ. But whereas Ñānavīra parses this as sabbato + apaham (the negated present participle of pabhavati or pahoti) and translates as "wholly non-originating", Ven. Sujāto's parsing would be sabbato + paham, the latter being the present participle of pajahati, to abandon.
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
Lal
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal »

I should imagine that like Ven. Ñānavīra he is going with the variant reading sabbatopahaṁ. But whereas Ñānavīra parses this as sabbato + apaham (the negated present participle of pabhavati or pahoti) and translates as "wholly non-originating", Ven. Sujāto's parsing would be sabbato + paham, the latter being the present participle of pajahati, to abandon.
There is a big difference between "pabha" and "pahāya".
- Furthermore, the verse then does not make any sense in the context of the two suttas.

Please Note: I just saw that I had made an error in reference 3 in my post. It should read as:

3. Bhikkhu Bodhi, The Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha” Wisdom Publication (2009), p. 428. A lengthy footnote on p. 1249 (footnote 513) describes how he has agonized over choosing from three different explanations for this verse.
ssasny
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by ssasny »

Thank you Venerable, for clueing us into this variant reading.

It does seem a possibility, distinct from the one Ven. Bodhi has chosen to translate.
Do you thing this present participle of pajahati is a more convincing reading than the adjective form of pabhā?
Thank you
Lal
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal »

variant reading
Do those previous readings make sense to you? Which one makes sense and why?
- Please note that those two "previous readings" don't agree with each other.
ssasny
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by ssasny »

I am used to reading sabbato pabhaṃ, but I suppose the variant sabbato pahaṃ is possible, as Ven. Sujāto selected it. It doesn't seem given as a variant in the 6th Council online Edition so I'm not sure what the source is.
It is certainly true that the two readings do not agree, they are from totally different roots. As the Ven. Dhammanando says, "the latter being the present participle of pajahati, to abandon."

I didn't know this, and thought it was pajahaṃ. But the PTS Pali English Dictionary tells us in the entry for paha:
"It is not at all improbable to take pahaŋ as ppr. of pajahati (as contracted fr. pajahaŋ like pahatvāna for pajahitvāna at Sn 639), thus meaning "giving up entirely."

You said you had no idea how Ven. Sujāto translated it this way, this is the answer.

Hopefully Ven. Dhammanando can help us.
Lal
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal »

Following is a post that was posted at puredhamma.net in 2018. It related to my previous post.

Anidassana Viññāṇa – What It Really Means

What Is Viññāṇa?

1. Viññāṇa is a central and critical concept to understand. I have started an in-depth discussion of viññāṇa in an advanced subsection of the “Living Dhamma” section: “Viññāṇa Aggregate.”

- In this post, I describe a meaningful translation to the verse, “viññāṇāṁ anidassanaṁ anantaṁ sabbato pabhaṁ..” that is consistent with all suttās in the Tipiṭaka. I would welcome any evidence to the contrary.
- Now we are getting into deep concepts. I would urge reading other related posts mentioned above first. Depending on one’s background, it may take time to grasp these concepts.
- One needs to read the posts in the subsection “Nāma & Rūpa to Nāmarūpa” of which “Viññāṇa Aggregate” is a part. If one does not understand those concepts, one could keep going back to earlier sections in the “Living Dhamma” section. It is designed to go from simple to profound.

What Does Anidassana Mean?

2. First, let us find the meaning of “anidassana” from the Tipiṭaka. The meaning of the word nidassana means an ‘illustration’ visible. Anidassana implies something that is not visible.

- For example, dhammā impinge on the mana indriya and give rise to mano viññāṇa via “manañca paṭicca dhammē ca uppajjāti manōviññāṇaṃ. “ Those dhammā also cannot be seen; dhammā are just energies lying below the suddhāṭṭhaka stage.
- These dhammā are, “anidassanan appaṭighan dhammāyatana pariyāpanna rūpan“ or “cannot be seen, cannot be touched, and belong to the dhammāyatana”; see, “What are rūpa? – Dhammā are rūpa too!“.

3. In the Kaka­cūpama Sutta (MN 21): “..Seyyathāpi, bhikkhave, puriso āgaccheyya lākhaṃ vā haliddiṃ vā nīlaṃ vā mañjiṭṭhaṃ vā ādāya. So evaṃ vadeyya: ‘ahaṃ imasmiṃ ākāse rūpaṃ likhissāmi, rūpapātubhāvaṃ karissāmī’ti. Taṃ kiṃ maññatha, bhikkhave, api nu so puriso imasmiṃ ākāse rūpaṃ likheyya, rūpapātubhāvaṃ kareyyā”ti? “No hetaṃ, Bhante”. “Taṃ kissa hetu”? “Ayañhi, Bhante, ākāso arūpī anidassano. .”

Translated: “.Bhikkhus, a man may come along bringing off white or yellow or dark green or crimson colors and may say: ‘I will draw shapes in the sky, I will make material shapes appear. What do you think about this, monks? Could that man draw pictures in the sky with those colors?” “No, Bhante. It is not possible to draw shapes in the empty sky that are visible, that can manifest as figures”.

4. In the “Nibbāna-The Mind Stilled” series, Bhikkhu Katukurunde Ñāṇananda has provided more evidence that “anidassana” means “something that is not visible” or ‘something that does not manifest”; see Sermons 7 and 8 in Volume II, which can be found under “Published work” section at, “Katukurunde Nyanananda Thera.”https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katukurun ... nd_stilled

- However, his explanation of viññāṇa is critically wrong, as I explain below. That is a common mistake that I see in many current interpretations. See, “Anidassana, Appaṭigha Rupa Due to Anidassana Viññāṇa.”

Viññāṇa Is More Than Consciousness

5. Even in current Theravada textbooks, viññāṇa is translated as “consciousness” or “awareness.” But it is much more than that. Viññāna represents much more: “our hopes and desires that we want from this world.” That is a critical point — that makes the connection between mind and matter (rūpa).

- We believe that things in this world will provide us with long-lasting happiness. Thus we do vaci and kaya saṅkhāra to achieve them. Then, “saṅkhāra paccayā viññāṇa” leads to the cultivation of a corresponding viññāṇa.
- Viññāṇa means without ñāna. When one follows the Noble Path, one will comprehend the Three Characteristics of nature (anicca, dukkha, anatta). Then one will realize the unfruitfulness of having such false hopes, i.e., cultivate paññā.

6. That is quite clear from Paṭicca Samuppāda: “avijjā paccayā saṅkhāra; saṅkhāra paccayā viññāṇa; viññāṇa paccayā nāmarūpa, nāmarūpa paccayā salāyatana, salāyatana paccayā phassō, phassa paccayā vēdanā, vēdanā paccayā taṇhā, taṇhā paccayā upādāna, upādāna paccayā bhavō, bhava paccayā jāti, jāti paccayā jarā, marana, sōka-paridēva-dukkha-dōmanassupāyasā sambhavan’ti”.

- All future suffering arises because we act with avijjā (i.e., generate abhisaṅkhāra) to achieve pleasurable worldly things and thereby create [i]viññāṇa[/i].

Two Types of Viññāṇa

7. Each citta of a human— which exists only for a billionth of a second — is contaminated in 9 stages. Then it is added to the viññāṇakkhandha! See; “Pabhassara Citta, Radiant Mind, and Bhavaṅga“https://puredhamma.net/abhidhamma/pabha ... -bhavanga/

- A kamma viññāṇa is a contaminated citta. Those arise via “saṅkhāra paccayā viññāṇa.” However, vipāka viññāṇa are just consciousness or “awareness”; see, “Viññāṇa – What It Really Means.”
- The contamination of a citta also manifests in saññā and vēdanā.
- See details in “Nāma & Rūpa to Nāmarūpa.”https://puredhamma.net/living-dhamma/na ... -namarupa/

8. It is stated in the “Saṅgīti Sutta (DN 33)“: “Tividhena rūpasaṅgaho—sani­dassa­na­sappa­ṭi­ghaṃ rūpam, ani­dassa­na­sappa­ṭi­ghaṃ rūpaṃ, ani­dassa­na­ap­paṭi­ghaṃ rūpaṃ“.

Translated: “Threefold classification of rupa (matter) – visible and graspable, invisible and graspable, invisible and ungraspable.”

- Three types of rupa are sensed with the six sense faculties -five physical senses and the mana indriya.
- Those rupā detected with the mana indriya are dhammā: “manañca paṭicca dhammē ca uppajjati manōviññāṇaṃ“; see, “What are rūpa? – Dhammā are rūpa too!“.
- These are the rupa of the third kind: invisible and ungraspable (ani­dassa­n a­ap­paṭi­ghaṃ: “anidassanaṃ appaṭighaṃ dhammāyatana pariyāpanna rūpaṃ“; see, “What are rūpa? – Dhammā are rūpa too!“.
- Those rupā of the third kind are same as nāmarupa that arise due to viññāṇa: “Kamma Viññāṇa and Nāmarūpa Paricceda Ñana.”
- That is explained systematically in the subsection: “Nāma & Rūpa to Nāmarūpa.” (I will discuss this in the future at DW)

Viññāṇa Is The Link Between Mind and Matter

9. Viññāṇa is also the link between mind and matter, even though it is in the “nāma” or mind category” most of the time.

- In the Paṭic­ca­samup­pāda­ Vibhaṅga (https://suttacentral.net/vb6/pli/ms?lay ... ript=latin), nāma is defined as only the first three khandha: “Tattha katamaṃ nāmaṃ? Vedanākkhandho, saññākkhandho, saṅ­khā­rak­khan­dho—idaṃ vuccati “nāmaṃ.” This is a clear indication that viññāṇa khandha does not really belong in the “nāma or mind category.”
- Even though vipāka viññāṇa is conclusively in the “nāma” category, kamma viññāṇa have energies, and thus fall into the rupa category. Sometimes viññāṇa is not included in the “nāma” category for this reason.
- That was pointed out in the post, “Viññāṇa – What It Really Means.” You may want to read that first. As pointed out in that post, kamma viññāṇa are different from vipāka viññāṇa in that kamma viññāṇa have energies embedded in them.
- Solid confirmation is in the Majje Sutta (AN 6.61), where it is stated that nāma is at one end, rūpa is at the other end, with viññāṇa in the middle: “nāmaṃ kho, āvuso, eko anto, rūpaṃ dutiyo anto, viññāṇaṃ majjhe.”

Viññāṇa Is The Cause For Rebirth and Suffering

10. The real nature of viññāṇa as the cause for suffering is clearly stated in the “Dvaya­tānu­passa­nā­ Sutta (Sutta Nipata 3.12)“:

Yaṃ kiñci dukkhaṃ sambhoti,
Sabbaṃ viññāṇapaccayā;
Viññāṇassa nirodhena,
Natthi dukkhassa sambhavo
“.

Translated: “Whatever suffering that arises, all that arises due to viññāṇa; When arising of viññāṇa is stopped, suffering due to new existences cannot arise.” Note that viññāṇa here refers specifically to kamma viññāṇa discussed in #9 above.

- That should lay to rest any arguments about viññāṇa being the same as Nibbāna, pabhassara citta, or bhavaṅga.
- A critical point that I have been trying to make is that when one sees such dramatic contradiction somewhere, one should be skeptical about that source’s trustworthiness. That is the only way to make progress.

Brahma­niman­tanika Sutta (MN 49)

11. The phrase “viññāṇāṁ anidassanaṁ anantaṁ sabbato pabhaṁ..” appears in the Brahma­niman­tanika Sutta (MN 49). I will first provide the essential parts of the sutta relevant to the meaning of this verse.

Here is the essence of the sutta in plain English:

At one time, the Buddha saw that the following wrong view came to the mind of the Baka Brahmā (who is the leader of the Maha Brahma realm; see, “31 Realms of Existence“): “My existence is permanent, it is stable, it is eternal, and is not liable to passing away.”

To correct the wrong view of the Baka Brahmā, vanishing from near the great sāl-tree in the Subhaga Grove at Ukkaṭṭhā, the Buddha appeared in that Brahma-world.

Baka Brahmā saw the Buddha coming, welcomed him, and told him: “Idañhi, mārisa, niccaṃ, idaṃ dhuvaṃ, idaṃ sassataṃ, idaṃ kevalaṃ, idaṃ acavanadhammaṃ, idañhi na jāyati na jīyati na mīyati na cavati na upapajjāti. Ito ca panaññaṃ uttari nissaraṇaṃ natthī’ti.“

Translated: “This existence, good sir, can be maintained to my liking; it is stable, it is eternal. It encompasses all, not liable to passing away, IT is not born, nor does it age or die or pass away or uprise. There is no further release from this existence”.

The Buddha replied: “You are ignorant. You say your existence can be to your liking, but that is not so. It is not permanent as you say…” (yatra hi nāma aniccaṃyeva samānaṃ niccanti vakkhati, addhuvaṃyeva samānaṃ dhuvanti vakkhati).

- By the way, here, it is important to note that the Pāli word for “permanent” is “dhuva” and not “nicca.”

The Buddha added, “..although you say there is no further release, there is indeed a permanent release” (“santañca panaññaṃ uttari nissaraṇaṃ “natthaññaṃ uttari nissaraṇan” ti vakkhatī’ti.”

Then there is an account of how Māra the Deva, having entered a particular company of Brahmā, spoke to encourage the Brahma. I will skip that account to get to the crux of the matter.

Baka Brahmā then replied to the Buddha: ‘But, good sir, I say “nicca” because it is so, I say “stable” because it is stable, I say “eternal” because it is eternal. There is no more suffering,…I have escaped from the cravings for patavi, apo, tejo, vayo dhatu..”. (Meaning he has overcome tanha for sensual pleasures available in the kāma loka comprised from the four mahā dhatu condensed versions of mahā bhuta).

The Buddha told the Baka Brahma that he knew that the Baka Brahma had transcended the kāma loka and was fully aware of his powers. The Buddha added that there were things in this world that the Brahma was not aware of. (1) There are higher Brahma realms, (2) Baka Brahma himself was in the Abhassara Brahma realm, died there, and was now reborn in this lower Brahma realm. The Buddha told the Baka Brahma: “you neither know nor see those higher realms, but I know and see them.”

Here is the relevant part of the Sutta where the Buddha tells Baka Brahma: ”Pathaviṃ kho ahaṃ, brahme, pathavito abhiññāya yāvatā pathaviyā pathavattena ananubhūtaṃ tadabhiññāya pathaviṃ nāpahosiṃ, pathaviyā nāpahosiṃ, pathavito nāpahosiṃ, pathaviṃ meti nāpahosiṃ, pathaviṃ nābhivadiṃ…”

Translated: Brahma, knowing patavi to be just patavi (devoid of life), knowing the true nature of patavi, I do not take patavi to be me. (No attachment to things in the kāma loka made out of the condensed versions of the four mahā bhuta)”.

- Then he repeated the same verse for the other three mahā bhuta of which the bodies of beings in kāma loka are made of apo, tejo, vayo.
- Finally, he summarized it all in the following verse, which we discussed in the post “Pabhassara Citta, Radiant Mind, and Bhavaṅga“: “Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ anantaṃ sabbato pabhaṃ, taṃ pathaviyā pathavattenaananubhūtaṃ, āpassa āpattena ananubhūtaṃ, tejassa tejattena ananubhūtaṃ, vāyassavāyattena ananubhūtaṃ, bhūtānaṃ bhūtattena ananubhūtaṃ, devānaṃ devattenaananubhūtaṃ, pajāpatissa pajāpatittena ananubhūtaṃ, brahmānaṃ brahmattenaananubhūtaṃ, ābhassarānaṃ ābhassarattena ananubhūtaṃ, subhakiṇhānaṃ subhakiṇhānaṃ subha­kiṇ­hattena ananubhūtaṃ, vehapphalānaṃ vehap­phalat­tena ananubhūtaṃ, abhibhussa abhibhuttena ananubhūtaṃ, sabbassa sabbattena ananubhūtaṃ.”.

Translated: “Viññāṇa is unseen, infinite, and leads to the rebirth process for all. With viññāṇa (defiled consciousness), one cannot comprehend the real nature of patavi, āpo, tējo, vāyo, bhūta, deva, pajapti brahma, abhassara brahma, subhakinha brahma, vehapphala brahma, etc., i.e., everything in this world (sabba)”.

- See, “Bhūta and Yathābhūta – What Do They Really Mean.” Also, note that viññāṇa referred to in the above verse and in #11 is “kamma viññāṇa” and NOT “vipāka viññāṇa”; see, “Abhisaṅkhāra Lead to Kamma Viññāṇa.”

Then, the Buddha concluded: “Thus, Brahmā, I am not merely on an exact equality with you as regards super-knowledge; I am indeed higher in knowledge.”

Then the Brahma challenged the Buddha, saying that he will disappear, and If the Buddha is of higher knowledge, try to find him. But he was unable to hide from the Buddha.

Then the Buddha said, “‘Now I am vanishing from you, Brahmā. Find me if you can.” Of course, the Brahma was unable to find the Buddha and thus had to concede defeat.

That is the essence of that long sutta that is relevant for this discussion.

There Is No Refuge In Any of The Thirty One Realms

12. We have to realize that indeed the Mahā Brahma has a very long lifetime of a quarter of our universe’s age (several billion years).

- Furthermore, since Brahmās do not have solid bodies like ours, they are not subject to diseases or bodily pains. So, they live a peaceful life until the end of their bhava. So it is no surprise that the Baka Brahma thought that he had overcome all suffering by getting rid of the human body. See the post on “Body Types in 31 Realms – Importance of Manomaya Kaya” for details on the bodies of beings in other realms.
- Of course, Brahmā can still have future births in the apāyā. Unless they had attained at least the Sotāpanna stage of Nibbāna, they have only suppressed kāma rāga, and have not removed any of the ten samyojana.
- That should give us a lot to think about our suffering-causing body that lasts only about 100 years! There is absolutely nothing to be proud of one’s physical body or to feel that it is worthwhile to take this foul body to be “mine.” That is one way to get rid of sakkaya diṭṭhi.
- The question is not whether there is a “self” or not. Is it wise to think that it is worthwhile to have the perception of a “self” and do things only for the pleasure of the "self"? If born a dog, would it be the same self? But if one does lowly deeds that a dog does (say defecating in public, having sex with children, etc.), one could be born a dog. The wrong perception of a “self” can lead to immoral actions and suffering in future lives.
2600htz
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by 2600htz »

Hi Lal:

In the forum there is currently a heated debate on the subject of "a sotapanna can or cannot break precepts". Could you provide your opinion here please?.

Regards
Lal
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Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2016 11:39 am

Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal »

Hello 2600htz,

I don't have time to read that lengthy thread. But a Sotapanna is incapable of only six immoral deeds: Killing mother, killing father, killing an Arahant, injuring a Buddha, and causing a schism in Sangha.
- Of course, that DOES NOT mean a Sotapanna WILL commit any other immoral deeds.
- However, a Sotapanna is INCAPABLE, under any circumstance, of committing one of the above six deeds.

1. The following Tipitaka reference explains them:
"Aṅguttara Nikāya 1 - 268–277": https://suttacentral.net/an1.268-277/en ... ript=latin

In the English translation there "a person accomplished in view", is a Sotapanna.

2. Another reference: "Ratana Sutta (Snp 2.1) : https://suttacentral.net/snp2.1/en/suja ... ript=latin

The following two verses describe a Sotapanna and the six deeds a Sotapanna is definitely incapable of (I have slightly modified the English translation there):

When they attain to the vision
Sahāvassa dassanasampadāya,
they give up three things:
Tayassu dhammā jahitā bhavanti;
identity view, doubt, and any
attachment to precepts and observances.

Sakkāyadiṭṭhī vicikicchitañca,
Sīlabbataṁ vāpi yadatthi kiñci.

They’re freed from the four realms in apaya,
Catūhapāyehi ca vippamutto,
and unable to perform the six grave crimes.
Chaccābhiṭhānāni abhabba kātuṁ;
This sublime gem is in the Saṅgha;
Idampi saṅghe ratanaṁ paṇītaṁ,
by this truth, may you be well!
Etena saccena suvatthi hotu.

- Those six grave crimes are the ones that I listed above and also in #1 above.

P.S. The possibility of a Sotapanna committing any other immoral deed (other than those six) in not ruled out. Again, that DOES NOT mean a Sotapanna can or will engage in such moral deeds.

If you have any other specific questions, I can take a look.
Lal
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal »

There are several posts on the Sotapanna stage starting with the post, "Sotapanna - One With the "Wider Worldview" of the Buddha" on Oct 25, 2021:
viewtopic.php?f=46&t=26749&start=1395

A key point is that a Sotapanna has only "seen with wisdom" the futility and dangers in the rebirth process, but has not removed kama raga and patigha.
- Any "immoral deed" that a Sotapanna may be forced to commit will not be done with an "apayagami mindset."

There are several accounts in the Tipitaka of some Sotapannas who engaged in some actions that raised questions even back then.
- Sarakani was a drunkard before he met the Buddha and attained the Sotapnna stage. He died soon after that. Some foolish people even laughed at the Buddha for saying that he had indeed attained the Sotapanna stage.
- There is another account of a girl from a wealthy family who attained the Sotapanna stage at a young age. But she eloped with a person who killed animals for a living.
2600htz
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by 2600htz »

Hi Lal thank you!:

The discussion goes something like this,

1)Everyone agrees a sotapanna cannot do the 5 heinous deeds (Ānantarika-karma) under any reason.

2)The most solid case study of Sakarani the drunkard is dismissed, because the sutta seems to not be clear if he attained sotapanna and continue drinking, or if he was a drunkard that was reformed in his last moments, practiced virtue and precepts and then attained sotapanna, dying never drinking again.

3)Then the discussion focuses on

A- Suttas that state killing leads to hell realms, and people saying that because killing leads to hell realms, its an action a sotapanna cannot do.

B-Suttas describing actions of noble disciples, something like "a noble disciple is restrained"," a lay follower clothed in white is endowed with virtue", etc

--------------

So as you see it seems the only argument that it has not been seen and im guessing you have, is that even if sotapanna kills, somehow it cant rippen in a hell bhava. (That would make sense because pretty much every sotapanna killed before becoming one).



Could you explain that mechanism?


Regards
Lal
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal »

Hello 2600htz,

"A- Suttas that state killing leads to hell realms, and people saying that because killing leads to hell realms, its an action a sotapanna cannot do."

As I said previously, I am not saying that a Sotapanna can or will kill indiscriminately. The Buddha has stated that a Sotapanna is absolutely incapable of doing only those six heinous crimes, and I have given TWO references in the Tipitaka. We don't know if there could be a legitimate reason for a Sotapanna to kill someone (for example, to save the life of an Arahant?)
- So, I guess those people know more than the Buddha about the Sotapanna stage! We need to remember that the Buddha also said that laws of kamma are one of the five things that are fully amenable to a Buddha and no one else: "Kammavipāko, bhikkhave, acinteyyo, na cintetabbo" See, "Acinteyya Sutta (AN 4.77)": https://suttacentral.net/an4.77/en/suja ... ript=latin

"B-Suttas describing actions of noble disciples, something like "a noble disciple is restrained"," a lay follower clothed in white is endowed with virtue", etc"
- of course, a Noble Disciple is restrained and is endowed with virtue. Kamma/vipaka are complex and we may not be aware of ALL POSSIBLE situations, but a Buddha is!

"So as you see it seems the only argument that it has not been seen and I'm guessing you have, is that even if sotapanna kills, somehow it cant rippen in a hell bhava."
- That is absolutely correct.
- That is why the Buddha stated, "Cetanāhaṁ, bhikkhave, kammaṁ vadāmi."
- Effects of kamma cannot be judged just by the action itself. One needs to look at the INTENTION, i.e., WHY that kamma was committed. See "Nibbedhika Sutta (AN 6.63)" : https://suttacentral.net/an6.63/en/suja ... ript=latin
- However, the Buddha has also stated that an Arahant WILL NOT kill for ANY reason. A Sotapanna is not an Arahant.
- P.S.Still, even an Arahant may inadvertently engage in "inappropriate conduct" as judged by laypeople. There was an Arahant by the name of Pilindavaccha, who used to address others as "vasala" or "of low birth". That was a bad samsaric habit of that Arahant, and he had no INTENTION of hurting others: https://suttacentral.net/ud3.6/en/sujat ... ript=latin
- There was yet another young Arahant who was walking with a layperson. They came to mud puddle on the road and the young Arahant jumped over it instead of going around it. The layperson became very upset that an Arahant could behave like that. Again the Buddha pointed out that he was born a monkey in recent births, and that 'monkey habit" came to him at that instant.
2600htz
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by 2600htz »

Hello Lal:

I guess what I am asking is exactly what factor causes not to be reborn in a bad destination anymore.

-not being able to commit the 5 heinous deeds
-is it the wasting of the first 3 fetters
-not having the capacity to develop greed, hatred or delusion to that level.
-consciousness not being able to grasp unwholesome bhava
-the 5 precepts?

Can we know that or is imponderable?
Seems that whatever is the mechanism, it also protects us from previous bad deeds.

Regards
Lal
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Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2016 11:39 am

Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal »

I guess what I am asking is exactly what factor causes not to be reborn in a bad destination anymore.
This is a difficult point to understand for many people.

It is correct to say that the reason is the removal of the first 3 fetters with the comprehension of anicca, dukkha, anatta nature of this world.
- With the removal of them, one's main wrong views (ditthi) about the world are removed. One would have seen the fruitlessness and dangers in attaching to worldly things. Any akusala kamma is done with some type of attachment to worldly things.
- With the drastic reduction of wrong views, the javana power associated with any immoral or akusala kamma will be drastically reduced (for a Sotapanna). That is another way to explain the role of INTENTION in kamma. Even when a Sotapannna commits an akusala kamma its strength will be reduced.
- A Sakadagami and Anagami would be engaged in even less number of akusala kamma, and even when they do, their javana powers will be less.
- An Arahant will have NO javana power for any type of akusala kamma. There would be absolutely NO INTENTION to gain anything worldly.

Another way to explain: For a Sotapanna, ditthi anusaya has been removed, but still has kama raga and patigha anusaya. Those are removed at the Anagami stage, and then the remaining anusaya are removed at the Arahant stage. All apayagami deeds are done with ditthi anusaya.

More details are in the posts that I referred to above.

P.S. The INTENTION above does not need to be conscious. The intention is displayed with the types of mental factors (cetasika) that come into play. When one has wrong views, such bad cetasika arise AUTOMATICALLY. However, actions based on such impulses CAN BE controlled by cultivating Anapanasati/Satipatthana.
2600htz
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by 2600htz »

Lal:

Thanks!, that solves my question

Regards
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