The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

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Lal
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Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2016 11:39 am

Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal »

Saṅkhāra - Needed to Attain Nibbāna

There is a category of saṅkhāra generated via wisdom or paññā, the opposite of avijjā. They are "kusala-mula saṅkhāra" that lead to Nibbāna.

We Live Life with Saṅkhāra

1. As we have discussed in recent posts, everyone (including Arahants) generates saṅkhāra while living in this world.

- Saṅkhāra are, in simple terms, THOUGHTS.
- Everything we do involve thoughts. Thoughts can be of many varieties: compassionate, loving, greedy, angry, jealousy, etc. Then we speak and do things with such thoughts with an intention.
- Mano saṅkhāra are thoughts that arise in the mind automatically according to one's gati (character/habits). If the sensory input (an ārammaṇa) is interesting, one starts thinking about it and vaci saṅkhārā arise; such vaci saṅkhārā also lead to speech. If then one decides to take action, corresponding body movements happen via kāya saṅkhārā.
- For example, you automatically start looking at an item in a shop if your gati matches it. Then if you think it is worthwhile to investigate it further, you keep looking at it debating whether to buy it. If you lean toward buying it, you may decide to pick it up and look at it more carefully. Those involve mano, vaci, and kāya saṅkhārā respectively. Such THOUGHTS that are related to attachment to worldly things (i.e., with chandarāga) are Abhisaṅkhāra. Arahants generate saṅkhāra, but not abhisaṅkhāra.

Chandarāga Lead to Abhisaṅkhāra

2. The easiest way to see the difference between saṅkhāra and abhisaṅkhāra is as follows. Saṅkhāra with chandarāga are abhisaṅkhāra.

- The correct “pada nirutti” (etymology) of “rāga” comes from “” + “agga” where “” means to “travel (in the saṁsāric journey)” and “agga” is to “give priority.” Thus, “rāga” means to “willingly engage (in the saṁsāric journey.)
- "Chanda" ("ca" + "anda") means "blinded mind." Therefore, one with "chandarāga" has not comprehended the dangers of remaining in the rebirth process. See, "Lōbha, Rāga and Kāma cchanda, Kāma rāga." https://puredhamma.net/key-dhamma-conce ... obha-raga/
- Chandarāga is of three types: Kāma rāga (attachment to kāma loka), rupa rāga (attachment to rupa loka, the 16 rupāvacara Brahama realms), and arupa rāga (attachment to the 4 arupāvacara Brahma realms.)
- Note that kāma rāga, rupa rāga, arupa rāga are three saṁyojana (saṁsāric bonds) that bind one to the rebirth process. Kāma rāga is broken at the Anāgāmi stage and the other two bonds at the Arahant stage.
- Thus, the removal of chandarāga leads to Nibbāna; see Ref. 1.

Three Main Types of Saṅkhāra

3. The following categorization could be helpful:

(i) Our thoughts, speech, and actions involved in daily activities are "kammically neutral." Thus they involve "kammically-neutral saṅkhāra."
(ii) Abhisaṅkhāra keeps one on the rebirth process. These are saṅkhāra arising due to avijjā, i.e., "avijjā paccayā saṅkhāra" in the Akusala-mula Paṭicca Samuppāda process; see, "Akusala-Mūla Uppatti Paṭicca Samuppāda."
(iii) Then there are "kusala-mula saṅkhāra" cultivated by those who are on the Noble Path (Noble Persons above the Sotapanna Anugāmi stage.) Those saṅkhāra arise with the compression of the Noble Truths. Those are the "akusala-mula paccayā saṅkhāra" in the Kusala-mula Paṭicca Samuppāda process; see, "Kusala-Mula Paṭicca Samuppāda."

We Have to Attain Nibbāna While in This World

3. We cannot do ANYTHING in this world without generating saṅkhāra. Thus, working toward Nibbāna also involves saṅkhāra.

- To work towards attaining Nibbāna, one needs to engage in physical activities (with kāya saṅkhāra), and discuss Dhamma concepts (with vaci saṅkhāra.) Furthermore, when the mind is in a suitable state (samādhi) certain Dhamma concepts come to the mind automatically (mano saṅkhāra.)
- Those are "kusala-mula saṅkhāra." One would start cultivating kusala-mula saṅkhāra from the Sotapanna Anugāmi stage. However, until the Arahant stage, some abhisaṅkhāra can arise via the Akusala-mula Paṭicca Samuppāda process. 
- Once attaining the Arahanthood, abhisaṅkhāra would not arise at all. However, Arahants would still generate saṅkhāra after attaining Nibbāna, until Parinibbāna. See the recent post, "Saṅkhāra – Should Not be Translated as a Single Word."

Three Types of Abhisaṅkhāra 

4. In the post, "Saṅkhāra – Should Not be Translated as a Single Word" we discussed three types of abhisaṅkhāra that can come into play in "avijjā paccayā saṅkhāra." See #8 there.

- First, there are apuññābhisaṅkhāra ("bad saṅkhāra") involving lobha, dosa, moha (and other related cetasika like jealousy. They are "apunna abhisaṅkhāra" that can lead to rebirths in lower realms (apāyās.) Such apuññābhisaṅkhāra will move one away from Nibbāna. That is easy to see.
- However, we saw that two other types of "good saṅkhāra" can also move one away from Nibbāna. Those "relatively good" abhisaṅkhāra that can lead to rebirths in the "good realms" at or above the human realm. Those are puññābhisaṅkhāra and āneñjābhisaṅkhāra.

5.  Puñña kamma with puññābhisaṅkhāra can bring “good results” in this world including rebirths at or above the human realm. Giving, moral living, and meditation come under puñña kamma; see, "Puñña Kamma – Dāna, Sīla, Bhāvanā" (https://puredhamma.net/three-levels-of- ... a-bhavana/) Puññābhisaṅkhāra also includes cultivation of rupāvacara jhāna (first four jhāna) that lead to rebirths in the 16 rupāvacara Brahma realms.

- Āneñjābhisaṅkhāra comes into play in the cultivation of the 4 higher (arupāvacara) jhānas that lead to rebirths in the 4 arupāvacara Brahma realms.

Per #2 above, all three types of abhisaṅkhāra arise due to chandarāga.

How Can Puññābhisaṅkhāra and Āneñjābhisaṅkhāra Arise Due to Avijja?

6. For those who do not have a solid background in the basics, it will be difficult to see why puññābhisaṅkhāra and āneñjābhisaṅkhāra also arise due to avijjā. The simple explanation is that one MAY act with avijjā until one understands the Four Noble Truths/Paṭicca Samuppāda/Tilakkahana, When one starts comprehending the Noble Truths, one would see why striving for future rebirths even in the higher realms can be dangerous in the long run.

- That is related to the fact that many deep suttas CAN BE understood ONLY after one gets that critical understanding.
- That is also why it is dangerous to translate deep suttas word by word without understanding the deeper concepts in Buddha Dhamma.
- I hope to discuss those in detail soon. Let us now discuss another related issue.

All Religions Encourage Doing Good Deeds to Achieve Happiness

7. Before the Buddha, people believed that there are morally good deeds, morally bad deeds, and morally neutral deeds. All religions (to some extent) taught that one must abstain from bad deeds and need to engage in good deeds. In Pāli terms, that means one should avoid apuññābhisaṅkhāra and need to cultivate puññābhisaṅkhāra.

- The principle behind that rationale is that doing good will lead to good results and the opposite will happen to those engaged in bad deeds. That is the "BASE LEVEL of understanding of laws of kamma."

Difference Between Buddha Dhamma and Major Religions

8. Buddha also advised people to live moral lives and to cultivate puññābhisaṅkhāra.

- But there is a DEEPER LEVEL of understanding in Buddha Dhamma. That involves an understanding of the "real nature" of this world of 31 realms embedded in the Three Characteristics of Nature or Tilakkhana. That understanding goes hand-in-hand with understanding Paṭicca Samuppāda and the First Noble Truth on Suffering. That DEEPER teaching says that suffering will NEVER come to an end until the real nature of this world is understood. That truth says it is foolish (avijjā) to assume that one can stop future suffering by just doing "good deeds" and by abstaining from "bad deeds."
- The deeper point (that may be initially hard to understand) is the following: At his Enlightenment, the Buddha saw the real suffering in this world. There is a wider world with 31 realms among which rebirths take place. Living beings commit "bad deeds" pursuing worldly pleasures and end up in the four lowest realms (apāyās.)  He explained the process (Paṭicca Samuppāda) by which future rebirths take place.
- Until that process is understood (and thus one can comprehend Tilakkhana,) one would still have that "subtle wrong view" of our world. That is the deeper level micchā diṭṭhi removed at the Sotapanna stage! That is the DEEPER LEVEL of understanding mentioned above.

Doing Good Deeds Is Not Enough to End Suffering

9. The CRITICAL point is that  "good results" from "good deeds" do not last forever. Since we all have done "bad deeds" in past lives, their results can bring "bad births."

- Suppose person X avoids doing ANY bad deeds in this life. When this life ends within 100 years or so, there will be two possibilities:
(i) Kammic energy for this human bhava has not been exhausted, and thus X will be reborn human again. Suppose X is able to avoid doing any bad deeds in that life and possibly a few more human lives. Eventually, X has to face option (ii) below.
(ii) X will be reborn in a new existence (bhava,) and it will be determined not only by the "good kamma' that X has accumulated in the current human bhava but also by any "bad kamma" accumulated in previous lives extending to billions of years to the past.

- That danger can be easily seen in some accounts in the Tipitaka. Even after stating the Arahanthood, Ven. Moggalana was beaten to death. That was due to a trace of kamma vipāka leftover from killing his parents in a previous life. Angulimala killed almost a thousand people and would have been born in an apāya if he was not able to attain the Arahanthood. If such highly-regarded Arahants had committed such heinous crimes in the past, how can we say that we have not?

10. That is why Buddha Dhamma needs to be understood in the context of the rebirth process. Of course, it is up to each individual to decide the validity of the rebirth process.

- Not believing in rebirth is one of the 10 types of wrong views (micchā diṭṭhi) in Buddha Dhamma. Thus, it would be impossible to make ANY progress with that wrong view. One gets to mundane Sammā Diṭṭhi by getting rid of such wrong views. Only then one would be able to comprehend deeper concepts like Paṭicca Samuppāda and Tilakkhana and get to the lokottara Sammā Diṭṭhi and start on the Noble Path.
- It is a good idea to contemplate the above. It is a waste of time to discuss deep suttas without understanding these basic concepts.

Difference Between Kusala Kamma and Puñña Kamma

11. Any "good deed" done with the BASE LEVEL of understanding is a puñña kamma. The same deed done with the DEEPER LEVEL of understanding is a kusala kamma. Let us discuss that briefly next.

- Let us start with akusala kamma that most people are familiar with. They can be stated succinctly as the ten types of akusala or dasa akusala. Three by actions: pānātipātā (killing), adinnādānā (taking what is not given), kāmēsu micchācārā (not just sexual misconduct, but also excessive of sense pleasures.) Four by speech: musāvāda (Lying), pisunā vācā (slandering), pharusā vācā (harsh speech), sampappalāpā (frivolous talk). Then there are three directly by the mind: Abhijjā (covetousness; greed for other’s belongings), Vyāpāda (ill-will, hatred), and Micchā Diṭṭhi (wrong views.)

- Tose ten are actually stronger or worse forms of akusala IF THEY ARE DONE WITH micchā diṭṭhi. Such strong versions of akusala kamma are pāpa kamma. They involve apuññābhisaṅkhāra that can DIRECTLY lead to rebirths in the apāyās. In Abhidhamma, such "apāyagāmi deeds" are done with "diṭṭhi sampayutta citta" or "citta that arise with wrong views." We can also say that they are done with apuññābhisaṅkhāra. Yet another way to say that is a stronger version of avijjā (or moha) is in play when one has one or more of the ten types of micchā diṭṭhi or wrong views.
- The ten types of wrong views discussed in, "Micchā Diṭṭhi, Gandhabba, and Sōtapanna Stage": https://puredhamma.net/living-dhamma/me ... nna-stage/
- Again, if one has any of the ten types of micchā diṭṭhi, one can act with moha (under high temptations) and do "apāyagāmi pāpa kamma." Note that it DOES NOT mean one with micchā diṭṭhi will always act with wrong views and will inevitably do pāpa kamma. But the possibility is there.

Akusala Kamma May Be Done by Anyone Except an Arahant

12. The critical point is that even if one does not have the ten types of micchā diṭṭhi, one could act with avijjā and still do pāpa kamma and be reborn in an apāya. But the possibility of that is much less than that for someone with the ten types of micchā diṭṭhi.

- That is why only those above the Sotapanna Anugāmi stage are truly free from rebirths in the apāyās. In addition to losing the ten types of wrong views, they have understood the following:  The possibility of Future suffering in the apāyās will be there as long as one believes that permanent happiness can be achieved within the rebirth process.
- (However, even a Noble Person below the Arahant stage can do "mild akusala kamma" that can lead to rebirths in the human or higher realms.)
- What if one does not believe that there is a rebirth process?
- Then there is no need to read deep suttas about Nibbāna. One WOULD NOT be able to understand them. But even more importantly, why bother reading about Nibbāna if one does not believe in the concept of Nibbāna?
- That is why not believing in the rebirth process is one of the ten types of wrong views.

Wasting Time Discussing (Incorrectly Translated) Deep Suttas

13. Many people can save a lot of time by carefully reading and understanding what I discussed above. Of course, this problem is compounded by word-by-word translations of such deep suttas. The problem is that even the translators do not understand the concepts I discussed above. If they did, they would not do such nonsensical translations.

- I see many people have engaged in the same discussion in discussion forums over many years. They have wasted a lot of valuable time. Of course, some people do not even take these discussions seriously. It is like discussing philosophy for them.
- But if one even starts to understand the key message of the Buddha, one would not waste any time. We have a limited time of fewer than 100 years to make use of this rare opportunity.

Summary

14. It is the "Kusala-Mula Paṭicca Samuppāda" process (https://puredhamma.net/paticca-samuppad ... samuppada/) that leads to Nibbāna. That process starts with "kusala-mūla paccayā saṅkhāra."

- On the other hand, the rebirth process continues with “Akusala-Mūla Paṭicca Samuppāda“ (https://puredhamma.net/paticca-samuppad ... samuppada/)That process starts with, "avijjā paccayā saṅkhāra." Good, moral deeds done without comprehension of the Noble Truths (i.e., puñña kamma) also fall under this category.
- The same kind of good, moral deeds done with the comprehension of Four Noble Truths/Paṭicca Samuppāda/Tilakkahana are kusala kamma.
- But many people believe moral, good deeds by anyone belong to the kusala kamma category. That is not correct.  Kusala kamma can be done only with the comprehension of the Noble Truths.

Reference

1. "Chandarāga Sutta (SN 22.25)" (https://suttacentral.net/sn22.25/pli/ms ... ript=latin) English translation there: "Desire and Lust (SN 22.25)" (https://suttacentral.net/sn22.25/en/bod ... ript=latin) Note that "chandarāga" is translated as "desire and lust." That is not correct, as I explained in #2 above.
Last edited by Lal on Mon Dec 20, 2021 1:12 pm, edited 5 times in total.
Ontheway
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Ontheway »

Hey, Lal. Maybe you can write something about Buddhism and Soul.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
auto
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by auto »

Lal wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 8:47 pm In a similar way, vitakka is a generic word, it could be good or bad, in general. But in many contexts, it is used to mean "bad vitakka" just like the use of the word "smell".
- But savitakka unambiguously means "good vitakka" or "samma sankappa" as explained in the post, "Vitakka, Vicāra, Savitakka, Savicāra, and Avitakka, Avicāra" on March 8, 2019 (p.71):https://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f ... start=1050. See #2 through #4 there.
- Also see #8 there.

Furthermore, as explained starting with #9 of that post, one gets to the first jhana by CULTIVATING savitakka/savicara.
- Then, as one gets to higher jhana, one totally removes any remaining (bad) vitakka/vicara. Removal of bad vitakka/vicara is indicated by avitakka/avicara, as explained in #12 there.
I think you wrong. In case of jhana, vitakka is immoral solely based on if it becomes either kusala or akusala. The problem is in becoming, getting inflicted by the citta what it tries to introduce to the object.
abhidhamma by Narada Mahathera p69 wrote:Vitakka is an unmoral mental state which, when associated
with a Kusala or Akusala Citta, becomes either moral
or immoral. A developed form of this Vitakka is found in the
first Jhàna consciousness.
Developed mind could be the forfeit of the akusala and kusala.
abhidhamma wrote:A still more developed form of
Vitakka is found in the Path-consciousness (Magga Citta) as
Sammà-Saïkappa (Right thoughts).
how it get rids of wrong(both kusala and akusala) is by change of lineage, not by cultivating good thoughts as you were so far suggesting.
abhidhamma wrote:The Vitakka of the Pathconsciousness
directs the mental states towards Nibbàna and
destroys Micchà (wrong or evil) Vitakka such as thoughts of
sense-desire (Kàma), thoughts of hatred (Vyàpàda), and
thoughts of cruelty (Vihiüsà).
findinglostvalues
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by findinglostvalues »

Hi Lal,

Having read through a lot of the posts on here, I'd like to simply point out a few things I observed. It is up to you whether you wish to respond or not.

You are clearly well versed in the scriptures and it's great. There is good information to be taken from your posts.

To start with one of the biggest factors that stood out to me is your agenda that you know the 'pure deep dhamma' and making yourself out to be some sort of a messiah with hidden knowledge of it. One of the detriments of that is that it will deter most people from actually reading through your posts because it gives instant red flags; sort of like the type of red alarms that go off when someone is trying to sell you something and paint what they have as something special you'll only find with them. Another is the fact that when you identify and vehemently assert a preestablished conclusion, specially one such controversial, then assert it the way you do with your posts, as to show the premises for that conclusion, in such a way, it leaves you open to having a lot of confirmation biases. It makes it seem like you're taking a 'top-down' approach instead of a 'bottom-up' approach, which implies that you have understood and attained nibbana, thus, can work yourself backwards from it to point out a pure dhamma. On top of that you seem to avoid any type of actual engagement with someone when they disagree because they are using incorrect translations, instead of actually seeing what they are saying; this is important because one could have access to the 'correct' translation and yet misinterpret it because they have wrong views, lack practice, or discernment, or one could have access to the 'incorrect' translation yet see through and cut through the 'incorrectness' of it because they have right view, has practice, and good discernment. I think humility is a good thing. Certain posts that made valid arguments contradicting some of your posts were presented well but were completely ignored by you which tarnishes your credibility. It will also create an echo chamber for yourself that prevents you from being open to any other views and continue to reinforce what views you currently hold and have; suppose, hypothetically, someone having wrong views was in your similar position, do you see how dangerous and disastrous it would be for that person?

Another observation is that, there seems to be a degree of conceptual proliferation and clinging to intellectual craving. Why can't you present all of this without asserting an agenda of a 'pure dhamma'? What are you trying to satisfy for yourself? Why are you so full of passion when talking about a dhamma that is meant to lead to dispassion and subdue passion? What are the conditions for that passion?

I wish you well
Lal
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal »

Thanks for the comments, findinglostvalues.

This is the way I write because it is based on my experience. It is not speculation.
- I don't understand why one needs to be "humble". That could be the case if one is not confident about the subject matter. I don't need to apologize for the way I write. One has to write with confidence.
- I realize that for most people Buddha Dhamma is like philosophy. Everyone can have their opinions.
- My writings are not my opinions. They are fully compatible with the Tipitaka, and thus the teachings of the Buddha. I may make minor mistakes, but I am confident about the key concepts.

Of course, it is up to each person to evaluate my writings and see whether they make sense. No one is forcing anyone to read my posts.
- Some people get upset because what I write is not compatible with their worldview. They don't realize that the Buddha just after Enlightenment himself realized that his new-found knowledge would be difficult to be explained to most people.

If I don't take a forceful stand, no one will notice. Even after all these writings, I do not see ANYONE openly challenging "the establishment", for example, those who (mis)translate suttas at Sutta Central.
- If you have read enough of my posts, you would have noticed that I have given many examples of wrong translations at Sutta Central. Have you asked those translators to respond? Of course, Sutta Central is just a part of "the establishment" that I referred to above. Most English books today have the same wrong translations.
- Instead, there are a few who make derogatory comments to me, WITHOUT presenting any valid arguments. It is a waste of time to respond to such comments. For example, the comment by auto just above yours is totally nonsensical. My writings on vitakka, vicara are not inconsistent with most of the writings of Narada Mahathera that auto cited. He just does not understand my writings or Ven. Narada's. Vitakka and vicara are two cetasika that can arise in both good and bad thoughts. When they arise in bad thoughts, they are mostly referred to as just "vitakka/vicara." But vitakka/vicara that arise in good cittas (especially in jhana cittas) are referred to as "savitakka/savicara" specifically to point out the "good'.

You asked: " Why can't you present all of this without asserting an agenda of a 'pure dhamma'?"
- I present it as 'pure dhamma' because it is. Why don't you ask those other translators to point out any contradictions with my 'pure dhamma' with the Tipitaka. I do understand that most people are unable to make a judgment as to whose translations are correct. But I have pointed out SO MANY inconsistencies with the translations at Sutta Central that can be evaluated without any knowledge of Pali. For example, please read my post, "Saṅkhāra – Should Not be Translated as a Single Word" (on Dec 06, 2021) above which provided clear evidence of the mistranslation of the Pali word 'sankhara." If you (or anyone else) can find "a hole" in my argument, please point that out.
- They also mistranslate vinnana, and many other concepts, as I have pointed out in many posts.

I believe you should be asking questions from those translators!
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S. Johann
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by S. Johann »

Good householder Lal,

everybody with "eyes" knows, sees, that main translator of SC (a trade off for the world undertaking) is far from Dhamma and simply seeks for another seft-profilation. Why, if talented, do not simply translate the Dhamma with less motivation to reactivate an oldready 'death dog' and possible dedicate it toward the Sangha, but instead, by trying to get a death dog walk, step by step, becomeing such by oneself, ignoring that beings are heir of their actions and profilation (papanca-dhamma) causes nothing but suffering. After all:words and perceptions on them, are not for sure, not possible to nail down as real.

In that way, in this relation, the generous and grateful hint by "afterlostvalues", had not the purpose to try to justfy again a take on position/profilation, but suggested to let go of arising of ayonisomanasikāro right here.

"Neither approving nor rejecting, they looked whether those qualities (of not willing to surrender, no Saddha) are present in their heart. Released they walked on either not found or cleansed pointed out dirt away."

Why not, out of compassion, seek out, like the Ven. Teacher, for the holly life instead and become another Arahat? That would be helpful for all and this world really doesn't lack of teachers holding a position, certain view. Years are going by and right next, if Saddha is firm, even ways for going forth.
You may make use of this account as wished for good, it's a cast off one. Password: 12345678. As the good stuff gets usually censured here, good if being quick to find ways out.
ssasny
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by ssasny »

The 'I'm obviously right, they are obviously wrong' style of argument rarely ends well.

May we all move past this horrible ignorance and craving soon.
Happy New Year to all!

Phandanaṃ capalaṃ cittaṃ, dūrakkhaṃ dunnivārayaṃ
Ujuṃ karoti medhāvī, usukāro’va tejanaṃ

The flickering, fickle mind, difficult to guard, difficult to control
the wise person straightens it, as a fletcher straightens an arrow.

-Dhammapada 33, Ven. Narada trans.
Lal
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal »

"The 'I'm obviously right, they are obviously wrong' style of argument rarely ends well."
It will end well if the reasoning is correct.
- Check back in a few years.
- In the meantime, try to find "holes" in my reasoning and present them. That would be more productive.
auto
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by auto »

Lal wrote: Sat Dec 25, 2021 5:04 pm - Instead, there are a few who make derogatory comments to me, WITHOUT presenting any valid arguments. It is a waste of time to respond to such comments. For example, the comment by auto just above yours is totally nonsensical. My writings on vitakka, vicara are not inconsistent with most of the writings of Narada Mahathera that auto cited. He just does not understand my writings or Ven. Narada's. Vitakka and vicara are two cetasika that can arise in both good and bad thoughts. When they arise in bad thoughts, they are mostly referred to as just "vitakka/vicara." But vitakka/vicara that arise in good cittas (especially in jhana cittas) are referred to as "savitakka/savicara" specifically to point out the "good'.
Happiness, sadness and equanimity are defilements. If you become one of these(established in the communicable), then the application to the object - vitakka were unskillful.
https://suttacentral.net/an3.61/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote: Seeing a sight with the eye, one is preoccupied with a sight that’s a basis for happiness or sadness or equanimity.
Cakkhunā rūpaṁ disvā somanassaṭṭhāniyaṁ rūpaṁ upavicarati domanassaṭṭhāniyaṁ rūpaṁ upavicarati upekkhāṭṭhāniyaṁ rūpaṁ upavicarati,
When vitakka isn't applied to the basis instead it is applied to the mental image what is exact with the uppāda(rupārammaṇa) - apprehending what is really there, vitakka is skillful.
visuddhimagga Nanamoli pdf22 wrote:54. Apprehends neither the signs: he does not apprehend the sign of woman or
man, or any sign that is a basis for defilement such as the sign of beauty, etc.; he
stops at what is merely seen.
..
He only apprehends what is really there.
You have a quote on same thing, but understanding is different. Here is why i post this, because it seem you are not considering the basis(for defilements) is what makes difference in vitakka being skillful or not. Not the content of the thoughts(being good or bad)
Lal wrote: Fri Mar 08, 2019 8:51 pm9. When one generates thoughts that specifically do not involve kāma rāga or otherakusala — but the opposites (nekkhamma/kusala) — those are called savitakka and savicāra.
- That is how one gets into jhāna: By eliminating (or suppressing) vitakka/vicāra and cultivating savitakka/savicāra.
My bad if you mean the same thing, but i don't understand what you type.
Ontheway
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Ontheway »

Lal wrote: Sun Dec 26, 2021 4:56 pm
"The 'I'm obviously right, they are obviously wrong' style of argument rarely ends well."
It will end well if the reasoning is correct.
- Check back in a few years.
- In the meantime, try to find "holes" in my reasoning and present them. That would be more productive.
I think you are playing with fire. Please don't mess up Buddha's wisdom with those putthujjanas' reasoning and bizarre interpretation.

Anguttara Nikaya 2:20
“These two things, mendicants, lead to the decline and disappearance of the true teaching. What two? The words and phrases are misplaced, and the meaning is misinterpreted. When the words and phrases are misplaced, the meaning is misinterpreted. These two things lead to the decline and disappearance of the true teaching.

These two things lead to the continuation, persistence, and enduring of the true teaching. What two? The words and phrases are well organized, and the meaning is correctly interpreted. When the words and phrases are well organized, the meaning is correctly interpreted. These two things lead to the continuation, persistence, and enduring of the true teaching.”
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
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S. Johann
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by S. Johann »

That's actually the reasoning, good householder, way of justification, householder Lal use, yet, as lacking yonisomanasikāra, is, taking on a paṭighanimmita here with it (fist I need to get right, defend my stand, as long as not approved, pardoned...) and by it incapable to walk on, not able to abound the Nīvaraṇa ill-will? This sutta explains just cause and effect and contains no call for justice, fight, at all) But as good householder isn't willing to investigate the relation of good association, proper attention, hindrances, and arising of Saddha (surrender) to gain real liberation, his bond to become a dead dog by beating dead dogs wishing them to walk. Althought good and wise understanding, if lacking wisdom, one dies off for the sake of the world another time. Even if he would get approval he would still not let go of byāpāda, beating further on a dead dog.

Speaking rightly leads of course upwardly but not necessary leads one beyond and if in gave wrong view, "this should be mine", even to hell.

He wouldn't follow his teacher into homelessness as he prefers to hurt other and himself, not willing to let go of taken stand/view. Grasped the Dhamma hereby as foolish wrong as those he beats, it bites naturally back. What ever undertaking to motivate him to go on, if thinking that not required that he needs to suffer from it in an amout that he would go, whould be likewise beating a dead dog. Yet others nevertheless, not involved, could learn a lot in not follow, leave their stand and follow the teaching for self-liberation.
Brahman Lal, ...That DEEPER teaching says that suffering will NEVER come to an end until the real nature of this world is understood. That truth says it is foolish (avijjā) to assume that one can stop future suffering by just doing "good deeds" and by abstaining from "bad deeds." (btw: why telling the Buddhas teaching foolish here? better would be focus on even this right effort for all.)
- The deeper point (that may be initially hard to understand) is the following: At his Enlightenment, the Buddha saw the real suffering in this world. There is a wider world with 31 realms among which rebirths take place. Living beings commit "bad deeds" pursuing worldly pleasures and end up in the four lowest realms (apāyās.) He explained the process (Paṭicca Samuppāda) by which future rebirths take place.
- Until that process is understood (and thus one can comprehend Tilakkhana,) one would still have that "subtle wrong view" of our world. That is the deeper level micchā diṭṭhi removed at the Sotapanna stage! That is the DEEPER LEVEL of understanding mentioned above...
Who in the world
is a man constrained by conscience,
who awakens to censure
like a fine stallion to the whip?
Those restrained by conscience
are rare —
those who go through life
always mindful.
Having reached the end
of suffering & stress,
they go through what is uneven
evenly;
go through what is out-of-tune
in tune.
No way out if one lacks of sammā-māna, having no view toward Sublime, liberation, not seeing Dukkha right here within.

Some are smarter...
As a lay person he began to spread dhamma and was much popular with some of the skills he had as a lay person. Most of the skills he got through the mediation were extraordinarily helpful for many lay people.

Ordination…

Abayarathna was fully ordained as a monk on 2005, under the guidance of Ven. Dambadeniye Hathpaththuwe Sri Revatha Bhikku & Ven. Diyakelinawe Medhankara Chief Bhikku. His name changed as Ven. Waharaka Abayarathanalankara and he donate all his assets to the name of Dhamma.

Even his wife, his son, his daughter and the daughter’s husband also entered to the monk – hood. As the whole family dedicated their lives to follow the path nirvana...
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal »

I think you are playing with fire. Please don't mess up Buddha's wisdom with those putthujjanas' reasoning and bizarre interpretation.
@Ontheway: Yes. That is my advice to you and all the bad translators that you quote. You are indeed playing with fire. All of you have blocked the path of many and still refuse to see the truth.
- The following translation, that you quote, is correct:
"These two things, mendicants, lead to the decline and disappearance of the true teaching. What two? The words and phrases are misplaced, and the meaning is misinterpreted. When the words and phrases are misplaced, the meaning is misinterpreted. These two things lead to the decline and disappearance of the true teaching.

These two things lead to the continuation, persistence, and enduring of the true teaching. What two? The words and phrases are well organized, and the meaning is correctly interpreted. When the words and phrases are well organized, the meaning is correctly interpreted. These two things lead to the continuation, persistence, and enduring of the true teaching.” [END OF QUOTE]

I just picked two suttas to prove my point in the following post: "Distortion of Pāli Keywords in Paṭicca Samuppāda" posted on Nov 28, 2021: viewtopic.php?f=46&t=26749&start=1410
- Even a child should be able to see the CONTRADICTIONS evident in those two translations of the Paṭhamabodhi Sutta (Ud 1.1) and Dutiyabodhi Sutta (Ud 1.2).

Instead of making empty comments, why don't you PROVE my arguments are not valid? That will be the easy solution to this back and forth.
- Quote from my essay and present valid arguments against them.

Unless that is done by you or any others making empty comments, I will not reply to such empty comments.
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by S. Johann »

If not fit, that's fine, good on-stand-holder Lal. Anyway, a-gain "simple" Dhamma-question:
S. Johann wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 10:34 pm Nothing more of benefit, what ever skilful engaged, good householder, then yonisomanasikāra (attention on what gives birth). And therefore it was asked, therefore there was it's try to touch. Of what one takes on, tends to, turns toward, there one arives. Taken on the wrong, of what isn't a refuge, everturning on becoming, aging, decay. Again, here within the 'nailing down' on saññas:

What's the reason, the cause, for yonisomanasikāra (attention on what gives birth) arising, the line of chains, and what the effect, once turning there? Or what's the cause of avijja (not knowing/un-standing)?

What's the food for byāpāda (fear/terror of losing stand/house) arising, increasing, and what's the cause of starving arosen byāpāda?


May good house(on-stand)holder do, answer, as he feels fit with it.
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal »

S.Johann asked:
Or what's the cause of avijja (not knowing/un-standing)?
The cause of avijja is not understanding the Four Noble Truths.
- Understanding of the Four Noble Truths will take place when one understands the Three Characteristics of Nature (Tilakkhana) and how future births arise via Paticca Samuppada.
- I have discussed that in detail over the past several months. You can start reading from the post, "Deeper Aspect of Buddha Dhamma" posted on Jul 13, 2021: viewtopic.php?f=46&t=26749&start=1350
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by S. Johann »

That's an idea, of causes, but doesn't good householder Lal know what the Buddha taught, explaining the cause, the chain, leading to avijja? Not-knowing has a cause, it's not that not-knowing has no cause, it's not that it isn't depending arising, so also vijja, knowing. The Avijja Sutta? What ever Sankhara is'nt but has a cause.
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