Is Sotapanna a fixed state?

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retrofuturist
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Re: Sotapanna is not a fixed state!!

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Sarath,
Unfortunately, I can't find any Sutta support.
DN 16, Sujato translation wrote:Take another mendicant who says: ‘In such-and-such monastery there is a single senior mendicant who is very learned and knowledgeable in the scriptures, who has memorized the teachings, the texts on monastic training, and the outlines. I’ve heard and learned this in the presence of that senior mendicant: this is the teaching, this is the training, this is the Teacher’s instruction.’ You should neither approve nor dismiss that mendicant’s statement. Instead, you should carefully memorize those words and phrases, then check if they’re included in the discourses or found in the texts on monastic training. If they’re not included in the discourses or found in the texts on monastic training, you should draw the conclusion: ‘Clearly this is not the word of the Buddha. It has been incorrectly memorized by that senior mendicant.’ And so you should reject it. If they are included in the discourses and found in the texts on monastic training, you should draw the conclusion: ‘Clearly this is the word of the Buddha. It has been correctly memorized by that senior mendicant.’ You should remember it.
Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
SarathW
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Re: Sotapanna is not a fixed state!!

Post by SarathW »

I have listened to another Dhamma talk by Ven. Vijithananda.
According to him, the sotapanna is a mental state you experience with the realisation that this is not my body. (elimination of Sakkhaya Ditthi)
by practicing Satipathana meditation. However, when he comes out of Satipathana meditation he still perceives his body as his body. This knowledge makes a complete change in his thought process (Sankappa).
With that thought (Samma Sankappa), he will not have any thoughts of breaking the precepts. It is not Sila because Sila is about suppressing thoughts.
He also eliminates doubt about Buddha's teaching about Nibbana and eliminates clinging to rites and rituals.
So I think he still may enjoy the sensual pleasures but not indulge in them.
Last edited by SarathW on Wed Jan 08, 2020 10:25 am, edited 2 times in total.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Sotapanna is not a fixed state!!

Post by SarathW »

mikenz66 wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 2:15 am Hi Sarath,
SarathW wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 1:35 am This is no different from to Wharaka thread in my opinion.
I'm not sure what you mean by that, but that thread started with Paul asking if anyone knew anything about Ven Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero.
viewtopic.php?f=46&t=26749
and there was a lot of discussion, here and in other places https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/ex ... s/10944/29 pointing out that the different interpretation of the Venerable seem to be, among other things, a result of interpreting Pali words with modern Sinhala meaning.

This is helpful to know, so having such threads is useful.

However, the problem I have with many of your threads, such as this one, is that they reference a talk that few here can understand and make it sound like you are advertising the conclusion:
SarathW wrote: Thu Jan 02, 2020 8:35 pm Sotapanna is not a fixed state!!
...
If you started these threads by saying something like:
Ven X claims that Y... Can anyone comment on his argument?
Then the discussion would probably be more fruitful.

It might also be helpful if you spent more time reading/listening and analysing before posting. You give the impression that you keep discovering important things in these talks and want to share them immediately. Unfortunately, this sometimes gives the impression that you have not thought much about the issue.

For example, you asked:
SarathW wrote: Sat Jan 04, 2020 10:06 pm Was Bahiya an Arahant when he met Buddha?
Which had a very straightforward answer in the Sutta:
Nicolas wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 1:37 am The sutta is extremely clear:
Bāhiya Sutta wrote: "You, Bāhiya, are neither an arahant nor have you entered the path of arahantship. You don't even have the practice whereby you would become an arahant or enter the path of arahantship."
[...]
Through hearing this brief explanation of the Dhamma from the Blessed One, the mind of Bāhiya of the Bark-cloth right then and there was released from effluents through lack of clinging/sustenance.
SarathW wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 1:35 am I am going to forward these discussions to the relevant people.
I'm not sure what you mean by this.
SarathW wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 1:35 am By the way, there is no reason to believe that everything in Sutta as the ultimate truth.
I strongly believe that the content of Sutta should be kept unchanged.
But people are free to agree or disagree with them.
This statement is a little confusing. Do you mean that there may be inconsistencies or wrong information in the suttas, which should be discussed and analysed?

:heart:
Mike
Thanks, Mike
Please change the topic to " Is Sotapanna a fixed state"
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
pegembara
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Re: Is Sotapanna a fixed state?

Post by pegembara »

At Savatthi. "Monks, eye-consciousness is inconstant, changeable, alterable. Ear-consciousness... Nose-consciousness... Tongue-consciousness... Body-consciousness... Intellect-consciousness is inconstant, changeable, alterable.

"One who has conviction & belief that these phenomena are this way is called a faith-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry.

"One who, after pondering with a modicum of discernment, has accepted that these phenomena are this way is called a Dhamma-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry.

"One who knows and sees that these phenomena are this way is called a stream-enterer, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
All that arises passes away.
What is seen and known cannot be unseen.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Re: Sotapanna is not a fixed state!!

Post by kalyana.mitta »

SarathW wrote: Fri Jan 03, 2020 3:10 am
You can be a sotapanna without experiencing the fruit of the path every waking moment.
The way I understand Sotapanna can be a married person and still can enjoy sensual pleasures.
When he enjoy sensual pleasures with his wife, he can't be a Sotapanna.
:mrgreen:
Just to be clear, sothapanna does not mean that they have gotten rid of their desire for sensual pleasures. Sottapana has only got rid of 3 lower fetters, which is self-centered view, doubt, and clinging to wrong practices.

Also once you become a stream entrant, you can't come back from that state to becoming a non-stream enterer. Once you enter the path, there is no going back no matter how negligent, which is said in the Buddha's own words, in Rattana Sutta:
Ye ariyasaccani vibhavayanti
Gambhirapannena sudesitani
Kincapi te honti bhusappamatta
Na te bhavam attamam adiyanti
Idam'pi sanghe ratanam panitam
Etena saccena suvatthi hotu

Those who comprehend the noble truths, well taugh by the Buddha of deep wisdon, no matter how negligent, would not take an eight existence. In the Sangha is this precious jewel. By this truth may there be well being.
From this part of Ratana sutta, it is talking about a stream entrant.
Sahāvassa dassana sampadāya
Tayassu dhammā jahitā bhavanti
Sakkāyaditthi vicikicchitañ ca
Sīlabbatam vāpi yadatthi kiñci
Catūhapāyehi ca vippamuto
Cha cābhithānāni abhabbo kātum

For one who has attained to right view, three fetters are at once abandoned; self-centred view, doubt and clinging to wrong practices. Freed from the four planes of misery, he is incapable of the six major wrongdoings that lead to hell...
It is saying how no matter what a stream entrant does, they will not go back since they are incapable of doing the six anatariya papakarama
Namo Buddhaya!
"Whatever treasure in this world or in other any worlds, whatever precious jewel there is in the heavens, none is equal to the Buddha. In the Buddha is this precious jewel. By there truth, may there be wellbeing."
:candle: Ratana Sutta | Sn 2.1 :candle:
SarathW
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Re: Is Sotapanna a fixed state?

Post by SarathW »

It is saying how no matter what a stream entrant does, they will not go back since they are incapable of doing the six anatariya papakarama
Namo Buddhaya!
In my opinion, they have attained this state well before they became Sotapanna.
Sotapana has perfected the Sila and Samadhi well before he became a Sotapanna as well.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
santa100
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Re: Is Sotapanna a fixed state?

Post by santa100 »

SarathW wrote:Sotapana has perfected the Sila and Samadhi well before he became a Sotapanna as well.
Regarding the Samadhi part, a Sotapanna still hasn't perfected it and still get more "work" to be done:
AN 9.12 wrote:Again, some person fulfills virtuous behavior but cultivates concentration and wisdom only to a moderate extent. With the utter destruction of three fetters, this person is a seventimes-at-most attainer who, after roaming and wandering on among devas and humans seven times at most, makes an end of suffering.
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Re: Is Sotapanna a fixed state?

Post by SarathW »

santa100 wrote: Sat Feb 01, 2020 2:39 pm
SarathW wrote:Sotapana has perfected the Sila and Samadhi well before he became a Sotapanna as well.
Regarding the Samadhi part, a Sotapanna still hasn't perfected it and still get more "work" to be done:
AN 9.12 wrote:Again, some person fulfills virtuous behavior but cultivates concentration and wisdom only to a moderate extent. With the utter destruction of three fetters, this person is a seventimes-at-most attainer who, after roaming and wandering on among devas and humans seven times at most, makes an end of suffering.
Agree.
What I meant there was Samath not Vipassana.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Is Sotapanna a fixed state?

Post by Ontheway »

SarathW wrote: Thu Jan 02, 2020 8:35 pm Sotapanna is not a fixed state!!

In the following video Ven. Vijithananda argues that Sotapanna is not a fixed state.
You are a Sotapanna only when you practice Staipathana correctly(Pajanati) and in the sate of without self-view (Sakkhaya Ditthi).
When you are not in the state of Pajanati you are not a Sotapanna.
Only the Arahant has the fixed state of Pajanati. (Sakkhaya ditthi fully eliminated)

Samma Dithi Sutta disc five - Counter 44.00

https://soundcloud.com/medamawatha
Is this teaching now popular in Sri Lanka?

It is somewhat similar to what Sammitiyas, Vajjiputiyas, Sarvastivadin, and Mahasanghikas proposed: the Arahantship can fall and revert.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
SarathW
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Re: Is Sotapanna a fixed state?

Post by SarathW »

Ontheway wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 4:27 pm
SarathW wrote: Thu Jan 02, 2020 8:35 pm Sotapanna is not a fixed state!!

In the following video Ven. Vijithananda argues that Sotapanna is not a fixed state.
You are a Sotapanna only when you practice Staipathana correctly(Pajanati) and in the sate of without self-view (Sakkhaya Ditthi).
When you are not in the state of Pajanati you are not a Sotapanna.
Only the Arahant has the fixed state of Pajanati. (Sakkhaya ditthi fully eliminated)

Samma Dithi Sutta disc five - Counter 44.00

https://soundcloud.com/medamawatha
Is this teaching now popular in Sri Lanka?

It is somewhat similar to what Sammitiyas, Vajjiputiyas, Sarvastivadin, and Mahasanghikas proposed: the Arahantship can fall and revert.
Can you provide some references, please?
For instance, if Sotapanna has an intimate private relationship with his/her partner, is that person has a Sotapanna mental state?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Is Sotapanna a fixed state?

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

SarathW wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 9:58 pm ... if Sotapanna has an intimate private relationship with his/her partner, is that person has a Sotapanna mental state?

Why not?

:heart:
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
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Re: Is Sotapanna a fixed state?

Post by Ontheway »

SarathW wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 9:58 pm
Ontheway wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 4:27 pm
SarathW wrote: Thu Jan 02, 2020 8:35 pm Sotapanna is not a fixed state!!

In the following video Ven. Vijithananda argues that Sotapanna is not a fixed state.
You are a Sotapanna only when you practice Staipathana correctly(Pajanati) and in the sate of without self-view (Sakkhaya Ditthi).
When you are not in the state of Pajanati you are not a Sotapanna.
Only the Arahant has the fixed state of Pajanati. (Sakkhaya ditthi fully eliminated)

Samma Dithi Sutta disc five - Counter 44.00

https://soundcloud.com/medamawatha
Is this teaching now popular in Sri Lanka?

It is somewhat similar to what Sammitiyas, Vajjiputiyas, Sarvastivadin, and Mahasanghikas proposed: the Arahantship can fall and revert.
Can you provide some references, please?
For instance, if Sotapanna has an intimate private relationship with his/her partner, is that person has a Sotapanna mental state?
:anjali:
If you read Kathavathu, in the past during the time of Asoka reign, Sammitiyas, Vajjiputiyas, Sarvastivadin, and Mahasanghikas proposed that the Arahantship attainment can fall and revert.

So I just wonder if Ven. Vijithananda's idea that "Sotapanna is not a fixed state" could be drawn from the above idea.

Btw, I disagree with Ven. Vijithananda's idea.
If we read the Suttas such as Ratana Sutta, Mahanama Sutta, Suttas from Okkantisamyutta etc., the Buddha clearly mentioned that by utterly cutting off three obstacles: Sakkaya Ditthi, vicikkiccha, and Silabbata paramasa, one reach Sotapanna sainthood (Ratana Sutta). Or some Suttas also mentioned the possession of four factors: unwavering confidence to Buddha, unwavering confidence to Dhamma, unwavering confidence to Sangha, and possess virtues unbroken, unblotched ...etc that are dear to wise ones (Mahaparinibbana Sutta). Also in the various Suttas, the Buddha stated four training factors leading to Sotapatti Magga and Phala:
"Sap­purisa­saṃ­sevo, saddham­mas­savanaṃ, yoniso­ma­nasikāro, dhammā­nu­dhammap­paṭi­patti" (SN 55.5)

So from all these information, we can see that:

One need to take up four training factors, utterly get rid of three obstacles, gaining four factors; in order to gain Sotapatti Phala. Of course, in the past during Buddha's time, the wise laymen and laywomen can easily gain Sotapatti Phala because they have good merits to support them, with open heart and listen to Buddha's Dhamma sermon with full confidence and concentration.

By practising the four training factors, one capable of utterly destroying the three obstacles and gaining four factors. Once successful, for such a person, Sotapatti Phala is reached and it is said "entered the Stream". And one conclusive Sutta pointed this:

Cakkhu Sutta (Samyutta Nikaya)
"Someone who understands and sees these principles is called a stream-enterer, not liable to be reborn in the underworld, bound for awakening.
https://suttacentral.net/sn25.1/en/sujato

Since they (Sotapannas) are bound to Awakening, it is impossible for them for revert as Puthujjanas. They abandoned Sakkaya Ditthi, vicikkiccha and Silabbata paramasa; not capable of doing six heinous crimes, gained full confidence to Triple Gems and have virtues dear to wise ones, they bound for Enlightenment.

Negligence of practice may only affect their speed in achieving Arahantship. Some might diligent, have a sense of urgency, they will attain Enlightenment faster. Some might negligent in practice, busy with daily lives, for these people they will be trapped in Samsara no more than seven lives. Therefore, Sotapanna is considered as Sekha disciples and still have "left-overs", much things need to be done.

A sutta (AN 9:12) pointed this:
"These foolish, incompetent wanderers following other paths: who are they to know whether someone has something left over or not? These are the nine people who, dying with something left over, are exempt from hell, the animal realm, and the ghost realm. They’re exempt from places of loss, bad places, the underworld.

Up until now, Sāriputta, I have not felt the need to give this exposition of the teaching to the monks, nuns, laymen, and laywomen. Why is that? For I didn’t want those who heard it to introduce negligence. However, I have spoken it in order to answer your question.”
https://suttacentral.net/an9.12/en/sujato

Quote:

"For instance, if Sotapanna has an intimate private relationship with his/her partner, is that person has a Sotapanna mental state?"

Not so, the field of attainment is entirely different here.
Sotapanna did not eliminate sensual lust and ill-will.

It is the Sakadagami that reduced the tendency of sensual lust and ill-will.

Only by the stage of Anagami, sensual lust and ill-will are completely uprooted.

So, sensual lust and ill-will may still occurs occasionally in Sotapannas, because they did not uproot them yet.

Eg:
1) Lady Visakha have many children;
2) Sakka Devaraja was fending off against the Asuras' attacks;
3) Anathapindika was agitated and chase out his house residing Devas;
4) Vessavana Maharaja permit the punishment for the Yakkhas who violated the Sangha as stated in Atanatiya Sutta.

Sotapatti Magga mental state occurs numerous times when one haven't attain Sotapatti Phala yet, but once he/she attained Sotapatti Phala, he/she is the Sotapanna, impossible revert back to Puthujjana.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
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Re: Is Sotapanna a fixed state?

Post by confusedlayman »

if u know 5 aggregates are impermanent and 4 noble truth then u will become more kinder, happier and compassionate.
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Re: Is Sotapanna a fixed state?

Post by 2600htz »

Hi:

I suspect a sotapanna just with path knowledge can still break the precepts, while a sotapanna with fruition cant.

Still sometimes i also ponder the idea that a person could potentially break the precepts rooting his actions in any of the other fetters still present in a sotapanna.

Anyways, i think it comes down to personal experience or what lets say the teacher you follow thinks. Suttas are not 100%
conclusive on this point.

Regards
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Re: Is Sotapanna a fixed state?

Post by confusedlayman »

2600htz wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 9:57 pm Hi:

I suspect a sotapanna just with path knowledge can still break the precepts, while a sotapanna with fruition cant.

Still sometimes i also ponder the idea that a person could potentially break the precepts rooting his actions in any of the other fetters still present in a sotapanna.

Anyways, i think it comes down to personal experience or what lets say the teacher you follow thinks. Suttas are not 100%
conclusive on this point.

Regards
What is path and fruit?
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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