Do you find Four Truths in other religions?

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SarathW
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Do you find Four Truths in other religions?

Post by SarathW »

Do you find Four Truths in other religions?
Ven Vijithananda argues that four truths are universal.
Why Buddha's teaching is different is he taught Four Noble Truths.
The Eightfold path also universal and is followed by every person.
What Buddha taught was the Noble Eightfold Path.
The difference is the understanding and the interpretation of each element of the Path.

What is your opinion on this?

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Sam Vara
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Re: Do you find Four Truths in other religions?

Post by Sam Vara »

Sorry if I have misinterpreted this, but the recording would be of no use to me as I lack Sinhala. It appears that the answer depends on what we mean by the notion of "finding the Four Truths".

If they are held to be universal, then we can see them instantiated in other religious beliefs and practices. We can also identify concepts which are similar to those of the 4NT in other religions. Muslims, for example, could understand what is meant by suffering, and Christians could understand the notion of the cause of suffering, and so on.

But other religions don't articulate them in the same way. They don't agree with the different concepts fitting together in the same way as Buddhists do. They don't agree that the problem is one of dukkha, or what should be done about it.
SarathW
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Re: Do you find Four Truths in other religions?

Post by SarathW »

But other religions don't articulate them in the same way. They don't agree with the different concepts fitting together in the same way as Buddhists do. They don't agree that the problem is one of dukkha, or what should be done about it.
Agree.
That is why the adjective "Noble" and "Right" is very important.
What is important here is that we all agree there is the recognition of Suffering by all humans. (even if you are not religious)
Then they define the suffering they cause, the solution, and the path incorrectly.

What I am trying to emphasis here is that we all are familiar with the technic of problem-solving.
What we are lacking is defining the problem, understand the cause, the solution, and the path to solving the problem.

It is like the current bush fire crisis in Australia.
It appears to me they have not defined the cause of the problem properly.
Some believe that 87% of the fire is caused by human negligence.
But they all concentrate on why the fire spread so fast (thinking dry conditions are the result of climate change) instead of looking at how the fire started.
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Re: Do you find Four Truths in other religions?

Post by DooDoot »

SarathW wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:07 am Do you find Four Truths in other religions?
No. The Buddha said he never heard the Four Truths before therefore they are not in any other religion. Also, the 1st noble truth is summarised as the five aggregates attached to. No other religion teaches this. Another religion can have some similar teaching but it is not the complete teaching because other religion is not free from self-becoming (bhava). For example, from the New Testament below, teaches about craving but does not teach about becoming & self-view causing suffering:
What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don’t they come from your desires that battle within you? You desire but do not have, so you kill. You covet but you cannot get what you want, so you quarrel and fight. You do not have because you do not ask God. When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=NIV
:alien:
SarathW wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:07 amVen Vijithananda argues that four truths are universal.
No. They cannot be "truths" if they are universal. Puthujjana religion cannot have "truth".
SarathW wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:07 amWhy Buddha's teaching is different is he taught Four Noble Truths.
No. There is only one "truth". "Truth" is synonymous with "Noble".
SarathW wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:07 amThe Eightfold path also universal and is followed by every person.
Yes. There is a eightfold path of wrong factors, per MN 117. But this wrong eightfold path is not a "truth".

The Four Truths are the truths of what suffering truly is; what the arising of suffering truly is; what the cessation of suffering truly is; and what the path to ending suffering truly is. If another religion teaches about suffering, arising, cessation & path in a different way, it cannot be the truth.

For example, when Jews blame others for their sufferings & hardships, always claiming they are persecuted due to race (rather than due to their deeds & self-cherishing/narcissism), this is not the truth. Even though this is a doctrine of suffering & its arising; it is a false doctrine; a false analysis. Therefore, it is not a universal truth. Instead, it is a universal falsehood; a universal doctrine of victimology that is spreading throughout the puthujjana world.
SarathW wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:49 amThen they define the suffering they cause, the solution, and the path incorrectly.
Therefore, it is not "truth".
SarathW wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:49 amWhat I am trying to emphasis here is that we all are familiar with the technic of problem-solving.
It seems you don't understand what you are trying to say. What you are trying to say is most people use a framework of cause & effect. You are confusing "causal analysis" with "truth". "Casual analysis" is not "truth". "

:roll:
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SamD
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Re: Do you find Four Truths in other religions?

Post by SamD »

Maybe Sarath should transcribe and translate relevant sermon excerpts so other members can properly participate in the dialogue.
SarathW
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Re: Do you find Four Truths in other religions?

Post by SarathW »

Lankamed wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:28 am Maybe Sarath should transcribe and translate relevant sermon excerpts so other members can properly participate in the dialogue.
Hi LM
I appreciate it if you can do it for me.
Even if I translate it it won't have any more content.
The point he made was not something new but many can't understand it.
Understanding a problem and solving it is universal knowledge. It is something we do every day.
When people learn Four Noble Truths and Eightfold Path they think that they are going to do something which they have never done before.
They think it is a daunting task.
These are the types of stuff they teach in the business school.
The only difference is they use this methodology to make more profit.

If you learn Buddhism well you can be a great businessman.
:D
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Pulsar
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Re: Do you find Four Truths in other religions?

Post by Pulsar »

SarathW wrote 
If you learn Buddhism well you can be a great businessman.
What do you mean by well? To a certain extent such practice (not rote learning) will allow one to become an ethically great businessmen.
One may not make become another Jeff Bezos, that requires unethical practices, inclusive of
slave labor. 
On the other hand if one learns and practices the doctrine really well, one would want to renounce all business, or any business of money making, since there is no end to greed. 
Thus profound practice in Buddha's dispensation, requires dispensation of money making ventures. Do you not agree?
Bit of a conundrum, ain't it SarathW?
Do the business schools teach ethical practices only?
:candle:
Last edited by Pulsar on Sun Jan 26, 2020 4:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Pulsar
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Re: Do you find Four Truths in other religions?

Post by Pulsar »

SarathW wrote
"That is why the adjective "Noble" and "Right" is very important.
What is important here is that we all agree there is the recognition of Suffering by all humans. (even if you are not religious)
Then they define the suffering they cause, the solution, and the path incorrectly.
So you are implying even the Buddhists define the Noble path in an ignoble manner, hence
they fail in its practice. Good observation.
Further you wrote
What I am trying to emphasis here is that we all are familiar with the technic of problem-solving.
What we are lacking is defining the problem, understand the cause, the solution, and the path to solving the problem.
I do not quite agree that human suffering is a problem that lends itself to technical
problem solving. If so why did we a need a Buddha? the planet should be dotted with
academics helping the public to solve their problems, which all involve suffering.

Nice simile below
It is like the current bush fire crisis in Australia.
It appears to me they have not defined the cause of the problem properly.
Some believe that 87% of the fire is caused by human negligence.
But they all concentrate on why the fire spread so fast (thinking dry conditions are the result of climate change) instead of looking at how the fire started.
To me it appears that the cause
they have not defined the problem
properly is all those
they

are not willing to sit down and meditate on the problem, the Founder has clearly indicated that
without the 37 factors factors of enlightenment, one will be merely
running in the same place, all naively asking "why does the suffering spread
so fast?"
I like your metaphor, so very applicable to our situation. :candle:
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