What exactly the status of the Sotapanna?

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SarathW
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What exactly the status of the Sotapanna?

Post by SarathW »

What exactly the status of the Sotapanna?
According to Sutta Sotapanna is a person who has eliminated self-view, doubt, and clinging to rites and rituals.
There were many discussions in this forum about the meaning of these three status.
Venerable Ven. Alawwe Anomadassi Thero gave a very interesting explanation.


1)Self-view: taking five clinging-aggregate as I, me, and myself. (This explanation is similar to a common understanding)

2)Doubt: Doubt eliminated as to whether " I was in the past, I will be in the future or am I here now" etc

3)Clinging to rites and rituals. Many people practice Sila with the fear of an unfavorable rebirth. But Sotapanna practices Sila for the non-remorse and for the attainment of a heightened concentration. In this case, Sila does not mean five precepts. He understands that he is free from woeful states. He also understands precepts alone will not lead to Nibbana. He does not practice Sila for not his well being. He may break the precepts but not for his well being (not with the though I, me or myself).
He uses the following from Ratana Sutta.
"Any evil action he may still do by deed, word or thought, he is incapable of concealing it; since it has been proclaimed that such concealing is impossible for one who has seen the Path (of Nibbana).[8] This precious jewel is the Sangha. By this (asseveration of the) truth may there be happiness.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .piya.html

What is your thought on this?
The video is in Sinhalease language.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
SarathW
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Re: What exactly the status of the Sotapanna?

Post by SarathW »

Any comments :D ?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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retrofuturist
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Re: What exactly the status of the Sotapanna?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Sarath,
SarathW wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 9:44 pm Any comments :D ?
Only that what this bhikkhu says is much less ridiculous than the words of that other bhikkhu you developed an interest in recently.

As always though, I can only go by what you post in English, as I do not know Sinhalese.

If you must seek guidance from living monks, then he seems like a step in the right direction.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
sentinel
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Re: What exactly the status of the Sotapanna?

Post by sentinel »

Imo
2. Eliminated the doubt here means with absolute certainty one knows the path to cessation .
3. Free from observing precepts that led to non path .
You always gain by giving
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Zom
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Re: What exactly the status of the Sotapanna?

Post by Zom »

2. Eliminated the doubt here means with absolute certainty one knows the path to cessation .
3. Free from observing precepts that led to non path .
In the suttas doubt is explained as doubt about what dhammas (mental states) are good and what are bad (wholesome/unwholesome). Stream-winner doesn't have such a doubt. All bad/unskilful mental states that arise - he knows as bad/unskilful and doesn't doubt if they are such.

"Precepts and observances" fetter (silabbata) is never explained by the Buddha. However these words are used in the sutta about Dog and Bull asceticism - MN 57. Some say that means that only clining to wrong precepts/observances is meant here. Some say, however, that clining to any kind of precepts/observances is meant, even buddhist ones. In the second case, as it is meant, a buddhist considers precepts/observances not a tool for practice, but a holy idol to revere.
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Dhammanando
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Re: What exactly the status of the Sotapanna?

Post by Dhammanando »

Zom wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 9:33 pm"Precepts and observances" fetter (silabbata) is never explained by the Buddha. However these words are used in the sutta about Dog and Bull asceticism - MN 57. Some say that means that only clining to wrong precepts/observances is meant here. Some say, however, that clining to any kind of precepts/observances is meant, even buddhist ones.
The second view seems to find support in the Dhammapada, where sīlabbata is listed with other items that are desirable in themselves but not sufficient by themselves:
na sīlabbatamattena, bāhusaccena vā pana |
atha vā samādhilābhena, vivittasayanena vā ||

phusāmi nekkhammasukhaṃ, aputhujjanasevitaṃ |
bhikkhu vissāsamāpādi, appatto āsavakkhayaṃ ||

Not merely by virtuous conduct and vows, nor, again, by much learning, nor by the attainment of samādhi, nor by sleeping in seclusion,
do I attain the happiness of absence of desire, not attained by worldlings. Nor has a bhikkhu obtained assurance, as long as he has not attained the destruction of the āsavas.
(Dhp. 271-2)
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
SarathW
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Re: What exactly the status of the Sotapanna?

Post by SarathW »

Perhaps the point here is we need all Sila, Samadhi, and Panna to attain enlightenment.
Sila alone will not help you with the enlightenment even though it is the foundation.
Perhaps Sila has to have some meaning to it in a way it leads to enlightenment.
Perhaps the dog's ascetic practice does not help it.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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