Puredhamma.net Warning !!!

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Dhammanando
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Re: Puredhamma.net Warning !!!

Post by Dhammanando »

Lal wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 7:11 pm This has NOTHING to do with a particular interpretation of Paticca Samuppada (Dependent Arising).
On the contrary, it has EVERYTHING to do with it.

When a translator opts for an explanatory translation, as you do, he will add extra words with the aim of making the meaning clearer than it would be if he were opting for a form-equivalent (or "word-for-word") translation. His choice of extra words will be determined by what he understands the meaning to be. His understanding of the meaning will depend on which interpretation of dependent arising he is committed to.

For example, A.P. de Zoysa, the Sinhalese translator at Sutta Central, has opted for an explanatory translation just like you. But de Zoysa's understanding is the opposite of yours: he thinks that it's විඥාන විපාක (vipāka viññāna) that ceases and so translates accordingly. The Burmese translator opts for ပဋိသန္ဓေဝိညာဏ် (rebirth-linking consciousness).

By contrast, the Thais and the European language translators have all opted for the form-equivalent rendering that you so vehemently object to: simply "consciousness".

Thai: วิญญาณ
Both English translators: consciousness
Both Dutch translators bewustzijn
German: Bewußtsein
Norwegian: bevisstheten
Italian: coscienza
Spanish: conciencia
Portuguese: consciência
Both Russian translators: сознание

In short, Sutta Central offers two translations that are informed by the Mahāvihāra commentarial interpretation, a dozen or so that are compatible with just about any interpretation, but none at all that comport with or are supportive of the Waharakaist eccentricity. In your anti-Sutta Central crusade it seems you've really got your work cut out for you.
;)
Rūpehi bhikkhave arūpā santatarā.
Arūpehi nirodho santataro ti.


“Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realms.
Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
(Santatarasutta, Iti 73)
Lal
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Re: Puredhamma.net Warning !!!

Post by Lal »

In short, Sutta Central offers two translations that are informed by the Mahāvihāra commentarial interpretation, a dozen or so that are compatible with just about any interpretation, but none at all that comport with or are supportive of the Waharakaist eccentricity. In your anti-Sutta Central crusade it seems you've really got your work cut out for you.
Bhante, you are trying to evade the root problem here.

There are MANY problems with this JUST ONE translation, i.e., translation of the  "Dutiya ­Bodhi Sutta (Udāna 1.2)":https://suttacentral.net/ud1.2/pli/ms

The sutta states, “Iti imasmiṁ asati idaṁ na hoti, imassa nirodhā idaṁ nirujjhati, yadidaṁ—avijjā nirodhā saṅkhāra nirodho, saṅkhāra nirodhā viññāṇa nirodho, viññāṇa nirodhā nāmarūpa nirodho, nāmarūpa nirodhā saḷāyata nanirodho, saḷāyatana nirodhā phassa nirodho, phassa nirodhā vedanā nirodho, vedanā nirodhā taṇhā nirodho, taṇhā nirodhā upādāna nirodho, upādāna nirodhā bhava nirodho, bhava nirodhā jāti nirodho, jāti nirodhā jarāmaraṇaṁ sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupāyāsā nirujjhanti. Evametassa kevalassa dukkhakkhandhassa nirodho hotī”ti."

Here is the translation https://suttacentral.net/ud1.2/en/sujato: “When this doesn’t exist, that is not; due to the cessation of this, that ceases. That is: When ignorance ceases, choices cease. When choices cease, consciousness ceases. When contact ceases, feeling ceases. When feeling ceases, craving ceases. When craving ceases, grasping ceases. When grasping ceases, continued existence ceases. When continued existence ceases, rebirth ceases. When rebirth ceases, old age and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, sadness, and distress cease. That is how this entire mass of suffering ceases.” (note that some steps are missing in the translation too, i.e., translation of nāmarūpa nirodho, nāmarūpa nirodhā saḷāyata nanirodho, saḷāyatana nirodhā phassa nirodho)

Many of the terms, including vedana and phassa have the obvious problems as with the translation of viññāṇa.
- Going back to the example of the Buddha, did he lose feelings and the phassa cetasika after attaining the Buddhahood?
- Note that phassa is a universal cetasika that arises with ALL citta. If the phassa cetasika does not arise, not a single citta can arise. That is also the same as losing consciousness!

How do you explain those translations of vedana and phassa?
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Dhammanando
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Re: Puredhamma.net Warning !!!

Post by Dhammanando »

Lal wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 6:32 am How do you explain those translations of vedana and phassa?
In the three-life interpretation, the consciousness that ceases is the rebirth-linking consciousness that would have heralded a future birth but which now, owing to the cessation of ignorance, will not do so. With no rebirth-linking consciousness there will be no new birth. With no new birth there will be no further phassa or vedanā.

So that's one way to reconcile the fact that consciousness is said to cease with the fact that the Buddha and arahants appear to go on cognizing and contacting and feeling.

It's not, however, the only way. The Buddhadāsa people and the Ñānavīra people, for example, each have their own very different take on what cessation of consciousness means. (Perhaps DooDoot and SDC might kindly give a brief account of what cessation of consciousness means according to these two interpreters).

So my point then is this: the Waharakaist conception of the cessation of consciousness is not the only way of explaining how it is that the Buddha cognizes and feels even though consciousness has ceased. There are actually a plurality of cogent ways of accounting for this. That being so, your objection to the Sutta Central translation of viññāna as simply "consciousness" falls flat, for it depends on the premise that there is no way but the Waharakaist way to account for the above and therefore the only correct translation is an explanatory one that presupposes the correctness of the Waharakaist interpretation and adds extra words in support of this presupposition.
Rūpehi bhikkhave arūpā santatarā.
Arūpehi nirodho santataro ti.


“Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realms.
Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
(Santatarasutta, Iti 73)
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Puredhamma.net Warning !!!

Post by Ceisiwr »

Lal wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 6:32 amdid he lose feelings and the phassa cetasika[/b] after attaining the Buddhahood?
- Note that phassa is a universal cetasika that arises with ALL citta. If the phassa cetasika does not arise, not a single citta can arise. That is also the same as losing consciousness!

How do you explain those translations of vedana and phassa?
Conditionality not causality is another way of looking at it.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Re: Puredhamma.net Warning !!!

Post by Lal »

In the three-life interpretation, the consciousness that ceases is the rebirth-linking consciousness that would have heralded a future birth but which now, owing to the cessation of ignorance, will not do so. With no rebirth-linking consciousness there will be no new birth. With no new birth there will be no further phassa or vedanā....
So my point then is this: the Waharakaist conception of the cessation of consciousness is not the only way of explaining how it is that the Buddha cognizes and feels even though consciousness has ceased.
You should stop talking derisively about "Waharakaist" conceptions. This is not about a "Waharakaist" conception. This is a matter of not comprehending Buddha Dhamma.

Did the Buddha have avijjā for 45 years after attaining the Buddhahood?
- "avijjā nirodhā saṅkhāra nirodho, saṅkhāra nirodhā viññāṇa nirodho, viññāṇa nirodhā nāmarūpa nirodho, nāmarūpa nirodhā saḷāyata nanirodho, saḷāyatana nirodhā phassa nirodho, phassa nirodhā vedanā nirodho, .." applies from the moment of attaining the Buddhahhod. It also applies to my Arahant as well.

The problem here is that you and others do not understand that phassa and vedana refer to "samphassa" and "samphassa-jā-vedana" in this sutta.
- An Arahant would have phassa (and thus would generate citta), but not samphassa. He would feelings (vedana) but no "samphassa-jā-vedana".
- It is the "uddesa version" that states: "avijjā nirodhā saṅkhāra nirodho, saṅkhāra nirodhā viññāṇa nirodho, viññāṇa nirodhā nāmarūpa nirodho, nāmarūpa nirodhā saḷāyata nanirodho, saḷāyatana nirodhā phassa nirodho, phassa nirodhā vedanā nirodho, .."
- A bhikkhu or a layperson who explains that sutta needs to use the "niddesa" or "patiniddesa" versions to explain the MEANING of such shortened "uddesa" verses.

We should try to explain Dhamma in a way that can be understood. Just translating suttas word-by-word without comprehending the meaning is more harmful. I have seen these points being discussed again and again for years at this forum. Many people are confused.
- At least one should not try to put down those who are trying to do their best to teach the correct version of Buddha Dhamma.
- In any case, it is up to each person to decide which interpretation is correct. There is no need to use derisive language like that appears starting from the first post on this thread. If Ven. Abhaya, or I, or anyone else teaches wrong stuff, people would figure that out and stop reading/listening.
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Dhammanando
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Re: Puredhamma.net Warning !!!

Post by Dhammanando »

Lal wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:02 am You should stop talking derisively about "Waharakaist" conceptions. This is not about a "Waharakaist" conception. This is a matter of not comprehending Buddha Dhamma.
I don't use the term with derision. I use it merely to distinguish your and your teacher's interpretation of Theravada Buddhism from other schools of interpretation. If you'd care to suggest some other name I shall be happy to comply with your wishes. Only don't expect me to call it Buddha Dhamma, for I'm not an adherent of it.
Rūpehi bhikkhave arūpā santatarā.
Arūpehi nirodho santataro ti.


“Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realms.
Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
(Santatarasutta, Iti 73)
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Re: Puredhamma.net Warning !!!

Post by DooDoot »

Dhammanando wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:10 am (Perhaps DooDoot ... might kindly give a brief account of what cessation of consciousness means according to these two interpreters).
Thank you Venerable. My recollection is Buddhadasa Bhikkhu was not partial to the translation "cessation" and instead suggested the translation of "quenching" for "nirodha". Therefore, the "quenching" ("cooling") of consciousness was the quenching of the defilements that can set consciousness on fire with greed, hatred & delusion. Possibly suttas such as SN 22.53 may support Buddhadasa Bhikkhu's personal ideas. With metta. DD
Buddhadasa wrote:Quenching without remainder is approached in
two ways. In the first, one habitually maintains the
quenching without remainder of the attachment
expressed as ‘this is I’ and ‘this is mine.’ In the
second, when the body is about to break up one lets
go of everything, including body, life, and mind,
letting them be quenched for the last time and by not
allowing any fuel or desire whatsoever for another birth
to be left. One should use the first method as the regular
daily practice. When the body is about to break up, or in an
accident when one does not die on the spot but has some
full and clear consciousness left for a time, one should use
the latter method. If one dies suddenly and is quenched with
the consciousness of one who has practiced according to the
first, then the result is similar, that is, one does not wish to
the reborn.

https://www.suanmokkh.org/books/19#start_reading

“Quenching Without Remainder” first published as
Extinction Without Remainder by Buddhist Association
of Thailand, Bangkok, 1963
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Puredhamma.net Warning !!!

Post by Lal »

I don't use the term with derision. I use it merely to distinguish your and your teacher's interpretation of Theravada Buddhism from other schools of interpretation. If you'd care to suggest some other name I shall be happy to comply with your wishes. Only don't expect me to call it Buddha Dhamma, for I'm not an adherent of it.
Bhante, you did not answer any questions. Just more empty statements.
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Re: Puredhamma.net Warning !!!

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Lal wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:02 am The problem here is that you and others do not understand that phassa and vedana refer to "samphassa" and "samphassa-jā-vedana" in this sutta.
- An Arahant would have phassa (and thus would generate citta), but not samphassa. He would feelings (vedana) but no "samphassa-jā-vedana".
Greetings Lal. The above sounds strange to me, even though I am not an expert in Pali. My impression is "samphassa" means "together with contact".

For example, MN 13 refers to contact arising with the touch of various creatures:
ḍaṁsamakasavātātapasarīsapasamphassehi

the touch of flies, mosquitoes, wind, sun, and reptiles

https://suttacentral.net/mn13/en/sujato
Or SN 22.81 refers to contact occurring with ignorance:
When an uneducated ordinary person is struck by feelings born of contact with ignorance, craving arises.

Avijjāsamphassajena, bhikkhave, vedayitena phuṭṭhassa assutavato puthujjanassa uppannā taṇhā;

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.81/en/sujato
It appears an Arahant would have feelings with contact (vedanasamphassajena). Also, the suttas (MN 18; MN 38; MN 148; etc) do not appear to differentiate between how feelings arise for an Arahant vs puthujjana. It appears Arahant vs puthujjana feelings can arise in the same way, although a puthujjana obviously has a greater range & intensity of external sense contact feelings due to having ignorance contributing to many types of feelings an Arahant would not have. But if both an Arahant & puthujjana were cut by a knife, both would experience similar feelings.
Last edited by DooDoot on Sun Apr 11, 2021 12:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Puredhamma.net Warning !!!

Post by Lal »

Greetings Lal. The above sounds strange to me,
Well. Read my post again and try to understand.

Does an Arahant have vedana and phassa?
- He has both. But he/she would not have "samphassa" or samphassa-ja-vedana". That is the easiest way to understand.

I have written about this issue at this forum. I will try to find the posts.

By the way, here is a discussion that you and others had on "phassa" for a very long time:
"Phassa and the cessation of phassa?": viewtopic.php?t=30370
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Re: Puredhamma.net Warning !!!

Post by DooDoot »

Lal wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 12:19 pm Well. Read my post again and try to understand.
Possibly it is your duty to post more clearly. I already expended more effort than ordinary attempting to understand what you wrote. If English is not your 1st language then this if forgivable. Buddhism teaches forgiveness.
Lal wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 12:19 pm. But he/she would not have "samphassa" or samphassa-ja-vedana". That is the easiest way to understand.
The above needs to be explained.

I already posted from MN 13, better MN 2, Arahants have ḍaṁsamakasavātātapasarīsapasamphassehi.
MN 2 wrote:And what are the defilements that should be given up by using?

Katame ca, bhikkhave, āsavā paṭisevanā pahātabbā?

Take a mendicant who, reflecting properly, makes use of robes:

Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu paṭisaṅkhā yoniso cīvaraṁ paṭisevati:

‘Only for the sake of warding off cold and heat; for warding off the touch of flies, mosquitoes, wind, sun, and reptiles; and for covering up the private parts.’

‘yāvadeva sītassa paṭighātāya, uṇhassa paṭighātāya, ḍaṁsamakasavātātapasarīsapasamphassānaṁ paṭighātāya, yāvadeva hirikopīnappaṭicchādanatthaṁ’.

https://suttacentral.net/mn2/en/sujato
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Re: Puredhamma.net Warning !!!

Post by Lal »

"Difference between Phassa and Samphassa" explained on Nov 08, 2018:
viewtopic.php?f=46&t=26749&start=645

P.S. "Vipāka Vēdanā and “Samphassa jā Vēdanā” in a Sensory Event" posted on Sep 30, 2019:
viewtopic.php?f=46&t=26749&start=1095

DooDoot wrote: "I already posted from MN 13, better MN 2, Arahants have ḍaṁsamakasavātātapasarīsapasamphassehi."
- You need to interpret a word based on the context.
- Just because the same word "right" is used in the following two sentences, they do not have the meanings: "Turn right" and "You are right".
- I have been you do the same thing in many instances. Just trying to apply a word to have the same meaning for different contexts will lead to confusion.
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Re: Puredhamma.net Warning !!!

Post by DooDoot »

Lal wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 12:43 pm "Difference between Phassa and Samphassa" explained on Nov 08, 2018:
viewtopic.php?f=46&t=26749&start=645

P.S. "Vipāka Vēdanā and “Samphassa jā Vēdanā” in a Sensory Event" posted on Sep 30, 2019:
viewtopic.php?f=46&t=26749&start=1095
You should quote exactly which sentences you are referring to. Thanks
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Re: Puredhamma.net Warning !!!

Post by Lal »

If you are interested in learning these concepts you should read the posts AND the posts that are referred to.
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Re: Puredhamma.net Warning !!!

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Lal,
Lal wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 12:48 am If you are interested in learning these concepts you should read the posts AND the posts that are referred to.
Frankly, many of us know these terms and their meaning. If you wish to present curious renderings, it's on you to explain them.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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