Ajahn Jayasaro : To learn Buddhavacana without Atthakatha, impossible

[Ontheway]

Ajahn Jayasaro was asked by Thai Buddhists on the issue of Buddhawajana sect in Thailand, whether Buddhists should entirely abandon Atthakatha in learning Buddhist scriptures aka Buddhavacana. Here is the official response for Thai Buddhists from Ajahn Jayasaro:

[SarathW]

Even with Atthakath, it is not easy to understand Buddhavacana.
Even if you heard it from Buddha himself it is not possible for some people.
However, Atthakatha is very helpful but not always.
For instance, the discussions we have in Dhamma Wheel are a form of Atthakatha.
Some are helpful and some are not.
I think you have to experience it yourself.

[Alino]

What exactly is Buddhavacana and Atthakatha ?

[Ontheway]

Ajahn Payutto, the author of "BuddhaDhamma" or "PutthaTham" in Thai language, asked by a Thai Buddhism student about the origin and importance of Atthakatha. Then, in this video Ajahn Payutto explained the history of Atthakatha, the origin of Atthakatha, the motive of translating Atthakatha, the role of Acariya Buddhaghosa, the importance of Atthakatha in deciphering the message of Lord Buddha, without resorting to misinterpretation and blindly reading the scriptures without proper understanding.

[Ontheway]

Even with Atthakath, it is not easy to understand Buddhavacana.
Even if you heard it from Buddha himself it is not possible for some people.
However, Atthakatha is very helpful but not always.
For instance, the discussions we have in Dhamma Wheel are a form of Atthakatha.
Some are helpful and some are not.
I think you have to experience it yourself.

Agreed.

However, I wouldn't regard this forum discussion as a form of Atthakatha, not even close. It might be as well just whole lots of "Papanca".

[Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta]

...
For instance, the discussions we have in Dhamma Wheel are a form of Atthakatha.
...

[Alino]

Ould someone who understand summarise what Venerable Ajahn was sad about it?
Thank you

[Ceisiwr]

Does that include Sarvāstivāda commentary?

[Ontheway]

Does that include Sarvāstivāda commentary?

I supposed no? Theravada is different from Sarvastivada.

[Ontheway]

Ould someone who understand summarise what Venerable Ajahn was sad about it?
Thank you

I will try to do it. My word-to-word translation from TH to EN might not be good though.

[Ontheway]

Ajahn Jayasaro was asked by Thai Buddhists on the issue of Buddhawajana sect in Thailand, whether Buddhists should entirely abandon Atthakatha in learning Buddhist scriptures aka Buddhavacana. Here is the official response for Thai Buddhists from Ajahn Jayasaro:

This is roughly what he said:

"...Yes, it is not easy. We know various (Pali) vocabularies and what they meant, because they are already translated and interpreted since Buddha's time. The guiding texts that involved in translation and interpretation are known as Atthakatha. Now this "Buddhawajana" organisation, abandoning Atthakatha while advocating understand 'Buddhavacana', such thing is not possible. Because the intended concepts, interpretation and translation of those Pali Tipitaka texts were done in Atthakatha already. Though the present day's Atthakatha was compiled after approximately 1000 years after Buddha's Parinibbana, even longer than the gap between Sukhothai and present day. But still we noticed there has been many translation of Pali texts, nobody knows exactly which translation is correct, if we choose to abandon Atthakatha....

Luang Phor Chah taught us many things and once he said to us: ' Sometimes what I said too isn't found exactly in Pali Tipitaka; but it is within the bookshelf of Pali Tipitaka.' No need for a long quotation from him, just a short sentence to make his stand on this matter.

I myself know him (Buddhawajana movement's leader) even before he was a monk. I always thought that why Thai Buddhists don't show interest to Suttas and learn Buddhavacana. And now since he organised this "Buddhawajana" movement, I am gladly to support it too. But there always a limit to everything. Don't go too far. There is no use for us if we keep finding fault in the Traditional teachings but don't have a solid way to practice. I speak as a person who loves Pali Tipitaka, read them frequently and do not mock the Pali Tipitaka. I teach foreign people about Buddhism. Now foreign monks will meet Buddhists from other sects: Tibetan Mahayana or Zen etc. They will be questioned on certain teachings of Buddhism. Here, the foreign monks can't just give their own personal modern interpretation or of modern contemporary teachers for those questions, but should recollect the ancient tradition of interpretation preserved so that it gives a solid understanding for the questioners (on behalf of Theravada). We should read and analyse Pali Tipitaka, but when comes to practice, we should not attack, look down, or mock the ancient Elders (of Atthakatha), for it is a kind of Upakilesa too.

Laypeople, if we insist to learn from an Ajahn who says we must learn the Dhamma from Buddha's own lips....then Buddha must be born in the era of (another existing) Buddha. Now if he insisted on that direction (disregard Atthakatha), we should just let him be.

Even now, if we have time machine & go back to Buddha's time. We wouldn't understand a thing when we listen to His preaching. Because we do not know His language. Not easy....now they said "Buddhawajana" is the complete Buddha's words. But that is just a Thai translation of Pali texts. It hardly an authentic "Buddhavacana". Anyone who has experience in translating texts from one language to another should know how difficult it is to maintain the intended meaning of the text. Furthermore, Pali is a dead language, no Indians speak this language anymore. How we know that which translation is the correct one and who can be the judge of it, if we abandon Atthakatha entirely.

Here I have a simile for this. The Pali canon is like a photo taken by camera for a particular scenery; while "Atthakatha" is like a hand-drawn picture, conveying essence, feeling, and the intended meaning of the scenery."

[bodom]

This is roughly what he said:

Thank you for this.

[Alino]

This is roughly what he said:

Thank you

[mikenz66]

Thank you for the translation.

....now they said "Buddhawajana" is the complete Buddha's words. But that is just a Thai translation of Pali texts. It hardly an authentic "Buddhavacana". Anyone who has experience in translating texts from one language to another should know how difficult it is to maintain the intended meaning of the text. ...

It's interesting how various recent movements in Thailand, Sri Lanka, and elsewhere, have come up with their own rather odd interpretations. See Ven Dhammanando's comments the Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara thread: viewtopic.php?f=46&t=26749&p=421520&hil ... do#p421520
While carefully examining the early texts is a good thing if it's done in an unbiased and well-researched way,
I think it is good to be skeptical of any movement that claims to be "recovering the original teachings". Especially when the claim is that "everyone else has been misinterpreting them for 2500 years". The link I gave above shows how this can go horribly wrong.


Mike

[Ontheway]

What exactly is Buddhavacana and Atthakatha ?

1) Buddhavacana is all teachings that were taught by, and/or approved by, and/or verified by the Buddha, following the Mahāpadesa tests.

Mahāpadesa sutta
https://suttacentral.net/an4.180/en/suj ... ript=latin

2) Atthakatha is a set of ancient commentaries often including detailed meanings, historical background, definitions of terms, etc. It is said that the Atthakatha was first recited during First Council, remembered by the 500 Arahants, later while teaching Pali Tipitaka (yes, Orthodox Theravada held that Abhidhamma was also from First Council, can read 'Atthasalini' for more information), from one generation to another generation, Atthakatha was served as a side note but not included in the Pali Tipitaka.

The ancient Atthakatha preserved through First, Second and Third Council of Arahants. Later, Ven. Arahant Mahinda Thera went to Sri Lanka to propagate Dhamma and established the first monastery named 'Mahavihara', brought forth entire authentic Pali Tipitaka canon together with ancient Atthakatha to Sri Lanka.

Later this Atthakatha was translated into ancient Sinhalese language, becoming Sīhalatthakathā. Many years later, Theravada is diminishing in ancient India and ancient Atthakatha was lost in the process. Ven. Arahat Revata Thera asked his student Ven. Buddhaghosa travel to Sri Lanka and retrieve the Atthakatha (now Sīhalatthakathā) and translate it back to Pali language for preserving the true Dhamma meanings. Ven. Buddhaghosa went to Mahavihara, and study further there. After completed the study, Ven. Buddhaghosa realised and decided, ‘This alone is the intention of the Dhamma’s Lord (Buddha).' Then he requested the Mahaviharavasins Arahats (dwellers of Mahavihara) to give him all Sīhalatthakathā to carry out translation work (from ancient Sinhalese to Pali).

Mahaviharavasins wanted to test the ability and wisdom of Ven. Buddhaghosa, so they asked him to make an exegesis based on a stanza spoken by the Buddha, which is from Sutta Pitaka:

1.Sīle patiṭṭhāya naro sapañño, cittaṃ paññañca bhāvayaṃ;
ātāpī nipako bhikkhu, so imaṃ vijaṭaye jaṭanti. (SN 1.23)

Translation:
"When a wise man, established well in virtue, Develops consciousness and understanding, Then as a bhikkhu ardent and sagacious He succeeds in disentangling this tangle.”

Then Ven. Buddhaghosa wrote Visuddhimagga based on this stanza and was approved by Mahaviharavasins. Then he proceeds to translate all Sīhalatthakathā and organized them into a systematised Pali literature called "Atthakatha". The main source of his works are the ancient Maha-atthakatha (Sīhalatthakathā) as authority, Maha-paccari Atthakatha, and Kurundi Atthakatha.

This is the present day's Atthakatha books that were translated from ancient Sinhalese back to Pali language:

(Right side is Atthakatha books' name)
Vinaya Pitaka: Samantapasadika
Pátimokkha: Kankhávitaranì

Digha Nikaya: Sumangalavilasini
Majjhima Nikaya: Papañcasúdani
Samyutta Nikaya: Saratthappakasini
Anguttara Nikaya: Manorathapuráni
Khuddakapátha: Paramatthajotiká

Dhammasangani: Atthasalini
Vibhanga: Sammohavinodanì
Dhatukatha, Puggalapannati, Kathavathu, Yamaka, & Patthāna: Pancappakaranatthakatha

http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_n ... akatha.htm

Just sharing...